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 Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:55 pm
Has anyone else noticed that heroines from the older fairy tales are much stronger, smarter, more human than the heroines of todays fairy tales? The heroines in these more modern fairy tales, espcally Disney, seem to be completely helpless & just sit around waiting for Prince Charming to save them.
Look at Cinderella who couldn't do anything for herself-- the mice did everything & the prince didn't even recognize her until she put the dress back on. How stupid is that? He recognized the dress but not the person.
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Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:23 pm
That's true, I guess. 'Though the Grimm fairy tales mostly don't have strong women, from what I can remember.
There are also a bunch of recent books that turn fairy tales upside down and have strong heroines. For example, Just Ella by Margaret Peterson Haddix. The main character does everything for herself in it. Goose Chase is a good fairy tale spin-off, too, with a strong heroine. And those are only the ones I can think of off the top of my head.
Disney just doesn't like women, obviously. razz
These days, I think most people--particularly female writers--make their heroines stronger and more self-sufficient.
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:10 am
Lol I just recently read Just Ella and it is a really good take on what happened after the traditional fairy tale. There are some good books with strong heroines you just have to find them. Nearly anything by Gail Carson Levine is really good and has a really strong heroine. I have to say Dave At Night is her worst book yet...but Ella Enchanted and The Two Princesses of Bamarre are REALLY good. Ella Enchanted is EXTREMELY different from the movie too. biggrin
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:47 pm
jingle bear Lol I just recently read Just Ella and it is a really good take on what happened after the traditional fairy tale. There are some good books with strong heroines you just have to find them. Nearly anything by Gail Carson Levine is really good and has a really strong heroine. I have to say Dave At Night is her worst book yet...but Ella Enchanted and The Two Princesses of Bamarre are REALLY good. Ella Enchanted is EXTREMELY different from the movie too. biggrin I love Levine's fairy tale works. The Ella Enchanted movie was horrible. I suppose there has been a chane in the way heroines are beening treated. I have been reading the "colour fairy-tale books" & the heroines are doing nothing at all! Driving me nuts!
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:07 pm
wait i think you have it backwards the heroines from the older ones are the helpless princesses whereas now they are stronger, like the Allana books and Calling on Dragon series.
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:10 pm
murphyad wait i think you have it backwards the heroines from the older ones are the helpless princesses whereas now they are stronger, like the Allana books and Calling on Dragon series. I agree with this one.. although you might just be talking about Disney.. which isn't "real" fantasy to me anyway. LOTS of smart heroinnes in fantasy today.. any Laura Hamilton book, The Deed of Paksenarrion, Mountains Call, The FireKeeper series.. and on and on.
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:12 pm
From what I got from the first post, she's talking about fairy tales. Not general fantasy. And a lot of fairy tales do have weak heroines. Snow, for example. I forget the author. The main character is asleep in most of the book. Not so impressive. Zel by Napoli (forget the first name) is another example. The main female character in that sits in a tower the entire time. And from what I remember, in Beast by the same author, the heroine wanders around gardening most of the time.
...And this thread has made me realize that I need to re-read all of these again, 'cause I loved them and can hardly remember any of them.
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Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:37 am
Bright Creature murphyad wait i think you have it backwards the heroines from the older ones are the helpless princesses whereas now they are stronger, like the Allana books and Calling on Dragon series. I agree with this one.. although you might just be talking about Disney.. which isn't "real" fantasy to me anyway. LOTS of smart heroinnes in fantasy today.. any Laura Hamilton book, The Deed of Paksenarrion, Mountains Call, The FireKeeper series.. and on and on. These are not fairy tales, but fantasy stories. There is a difference between the two. Fairy tale-- a fictional story that illustrates morals/desirable character traits and usually features folkloric characters and enchantments, often involving a far-fetched sequence of events. Fantasy-- a genre that uses magic and other supernatural forms as a primary element of plot, theme, and/or setting.
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Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:32 am
Maze353 Bright Creature murphyad wait i think you have it backwards the heroines from the older ones are the helpless princesses whereas now they are stronger, like the Allana books and Calling on Dragon series. I agree with this one.. although you might just be talking about Disney.. which isn't "real" fantasy to me anyway. LOTS of smart heroinnes in fantasy today.. any Laura Hamilton book, The Deed of Paksenarrion, Mountains Call, The FireKeeper series.. and on and on. These are not fairy tales, but fantasy stories. There is a difference between the two. Fairy tale-- a fictional story that illustrates morals/desirable character traits and usually features folkloric characters and enchantments, often involving a far-fetched sequence of events. Fantasy-- a genre that uses magic and other supernatural forms as a primary element of plot, theme, and/or setting. woops! i know the diffs i just wasn't paying attention OK, in that case Deerskin, The Spindle and The Thread, Beauty , and several others by Robin McKinley that 's all i know for the modern attempts at Faerie Tales just offhand. if I wrack my brain im sure to come up with more. we should also keep in mind that so many faerie tales are passed on rather than attributed to any particular author (unlike Grimm bros and Hans Christian Anderson, etc) and again, i still don't think we can call the disney stuff true faerie tales for the most part... since mostly all they are, are bad retellings of older stories (and mainly designed to make money and not to make a moral message). Sorry for not reading closely enough sweatdrop Anyway, i think my argument still stands for the most part; modern myth makers and folklorists alike are presenting their heroinnes in a more sophisticated light... unlike many writers of the 1950s mentality Also, I'm not sure what you mean when you say "modern. Cinderella has been around for centuries. Check this out Wiki Article The Cinderella theme may have well originated in classical antiquity: The Greek historian Strabo (Geographica Book 17, 1.33) recorded in the 1st century BC the tale of the Greco-Egyptian girl Rhodopis, which is considered the oldest known version of the story.[2] Rhodopis (the "rosy-cheeked") washes her clothes in an Ormoc stream, a task forced upon her by fellow servants, who have left to go to a function sponsored by the Pharaoh Amasis. An eagle takes her rose-gilded sandal and drops it at the feet of the Pharaoh in the city of Memphis; he then asks the women of his kingdom to try on the sandal to see which one fits. Rhodopis succeeds. The Pharaoh falls in love with her, and she marries him. The story later reappears with Aelian (ca. 175–ca. 235),[3] showing that the Cinderella theme remained popular throughout antiquity. Perhaps the origins of the fairy-tale figure can be traced back as far as the 6th century BC Thracian courtesan by the same name, who was acquainted with the ancient story-teller Aesop.[4] and it goes on. The article points out the the name Cinderella itself means "one who unexpectedly achieves recognition or success after a period of obscurity and neglect. " So not doing anything for oneself in this makes a good deal of sense when you consider that feelings of shame and low self worth would have been a factor (not to mention the fact that the Cinderella we know today was worked to the bone by her wicked step sisters. Who has time to do anythign for oneself?).
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Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:30 pm
In Lang's works (and those following him) Cinderella is a passive girl who just bemoans her fate and it is the fairy godmother who saves her and completelyforgives her stepsisters, finds them rich/powerful husbands. Before Lang Cinderella actively tried to change her situation and she let her stepsisters mutilate their feet, which she could have stopped, and she did not forgive her forgive them.
Hmmm, perhaps I should change the title of this thread to Cinderella, since she is the only one we are talking about....
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Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:56 pm
I think there are more strong heroines nowadays, like in Tamora Pierce's works, then there were in past eras when women were forbidden to fight in wars and be actors on stage. Nonetheless, no matter what generation mankind progresses into there will invariably be damsels in distress because many girls actually want a strong man that will keep them safe.
Why is everyone picking on Disney? Beauty and the Beast and The Lion King are two of the GREATEST MOVIES EVER!!! What about Mulan and Lilo? They're girls that wind up saving everyone. 3nodding
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Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:25 pm
MinervaEvenstar I think there are more strong heroines nowadays, like in Tamora Pierce's works, then there were in past eras when women were forbidden to fight in wars and be actors on stage. Nonetheless, no matter what generation mankind progresses into there will invariably be damsels in distress because many girls actually want a strong man that will keep them safe.
Why is everyone picking on Disney? Beauty and the Beast and The Lion King are two of the GREATEST MOVIES EVER!!! What about Mulan and Lilo? They're girls that wind up saving everyone. 3nodding Men are so stupid sometimes. When the men were all at war who do they think defended their holdings from raiders?
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Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:26 pm
Maze353 MinervaEvenstar I think there are more strong heroines nowadays, like in Tamora Pierce's works, then there were in past eras when women were forbidden to fight in wars and be actors on stage. Nonetheless, no matter what generation mankind progresses into there will invariably be damsels in distress because many girls actually want a strong man that will keep them safe.
Why is everyone picking on Disney? Beauty and the Beast and The Lion King are two of the GREATEST MOVIES EVER!!! What about Mulan and Lilo? They're girls that wind up saving everyone. 3nodding Men are so stupid sometimes. When the men were all at war who do they think defended their holdings from raiders? Hahaha. Protector of the Small reference, right? Nice~ That was the woman who managed the place where Kel stayed, right? I forget her name.
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Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:14 pm
NightIntent Maze353 MinervaEvenstar I think there are more strong heroines nowadays, like in Tamora Pierce's works, then there were in past eras when women were forbidden to fight in wars and be actors on stage. Nonetheless, no matter what generation mankind progresses into there will invariably be damsels in distress because many girls actually want a strong man that will keep them safe.
Why is everyone picking on Disney? Beauty and the Beast and The Lion King are two of the GREATEST MOVIES EVER!!! What about Mulan and Lilo? They're girls that wind up saving everyone. 3nodding Men are so stupid sometimes. When the men were all at war who do they think defended their holdings from raiders? Hahaha. Protector of the Small reference, right? Nice~ That was the woman who managed the place where Kel stayed, right? I forget her name. I'm glad someone got that. I'd feel like such a nerd emo . I can't remember her name either.
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Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:00 pm
Maze353 NightIntent Maze353 MinervaEvenstar I think there are more strong heroines nowadays, like in Tamora Pierce's works, then there were in past eras when women were forbidden to fight in wars and be actors on stage. Nonetheless, no matter what generation mankind progresses into there will invariably be damsels in distress because many girls actually want a strong man that will keep them safe.
Why is everyone picking on Disney? Beauty and the Beast and The Lion King are two of the GREATEST MOVIES EVER!!! What about Mulan and Lilo? They're girls that wind up saving everyone. 3nodding Men are so stupid sometimes. When the men were all at war who do they think defended their holdings from raiders? Hahaha. Protector of the Small reference, right? Nice~ That was the woman who managed the place where Kel stayed, right? I forget her name. I'm glad someone got that. I'd feel like such a nerd emo . I can't remember her name either. I know how that is. It always sucks when no one gets the reference. Now her name is gonna bug is. Is it something with a Z? For some reason, I'm convinced that it is. Gah. And all my Protector of the Small books are at home, too.
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