How does everyone view Shia in terms of being A Muslim?

[Thou Exalted]

I basically want a nice clean topic on what most Pakistani or Sunni Muslims from around the world view the Shia, Because I figured The Sunni would atleast get the ideals of what A Shia is without being wrong. Such as:

"Hazrat Ali is refered to as the Shia's Final Prophet after Prophet Muhammad died" May Allah forbid such a claim!

Anyway I'd like to see your responses.  

[Geek Zombie]

first of ALL i m Pakistani...!!


and i don't Find any thing wrong in Shia sect, except hurting themselves..!!!



i mean we also loved Ali r.a as you do...


we do khairats and sadka in Muharam..!!

but we don't hurt our selves!  

[squinty1989]

We don't hurt ourselves.
It is just that some people go over board.

We do hit our chests using our hands BUT we don't hurt ourselves.
I think people get hurt when they do it in a wrong way and that is when people think we hurt ourselves.  

[Geek Zombie]

squinty1989

We don't hurt ourselves.
It is just that some people go over board.

We do hit our chests using our hands BUT we don't hurt ourselves.
I think people get hurt when they do it in a wrong way and that is when people think we hurt ourselves.

unless from hitting the chest.!! in my country and in IRAQ mostly, they hit themselves with swords and all..!!

I HAVE SEEN IT MY SELF not on TV in front of me...  

[Thou Exalted]

tassan

squinty1989

We don't hurt ourselves.
It is just that some people go over board.

We do hit our chests using our hands BUT we don't hurt ourselves.
I think people get hurt when they do it in a wrong way and that is when people think we hurt ourselves.

unless from hitting the chest.!! in my country and in IRAQ mostly, they hit themselves with swords and all..!!

I HAVE SEEN IT MY SELF not on TV in front of me...

As Squinty mentioned not everyone does the mourning correctly. Simply tapping your chest with your fist is not harming yourself, It's like how you react when a tragedy just occurred, how would you react? By being emotionless or expressing grief or sorrow?  

[squinty1989]

Haydar the Truthful

tassan

squinty1989

We don't hurt ourselves.
It is just that some people go over board.

We do hit our chests using our hands BUT we don't hurt ourselves.
I think people get hurt when they do it in a wrong way and that is when people think we hurt ourselves.

unless from hitting the chest.!! in my country and in IRAQ mostly, they hit themselves with swords and all..!!

I HAVE SEEN IT MY SELF not on TV in front of me...

As Squinty mentioned not everyone does the mourning correctly. Simply tapping your chest with your fist is not harming yourself, It's like how you react when a tragedy just occurred, how would you react? By being emotionless or expressing grief or sorrow?

Actually, I don't like what we do but I just do it because it is said to be in our religion.
And at the same time grieving for someone does not mean hitting yourself.
it can just be crying but crying a lot can lead them to not think straight...  

[[ Absolut Terror ]]

Actually, top Sh'ia scholars and "ayatollas" endorse this Jahili act of Matam.

The Prophet (peace be on him) declared, "He who slaps his cheeks, tears his clothes, and cries out in the manner of jahiliyyah is not of us." (Reported by al-Bukhari.)


Also, I personally do not like Shi'ism because of the many things it has against Islamic teachings. The religion itself holds many extremities which can constitute kufr. However this doesn't give anyone the right to say "all Shi'as are kafir", because each individual is different and not everyone can be grouped as such.

Imam Abu-Hanifah said, "If anyone has doubts as to whether Shi'as are disbelievers is himself a disbeliever."
Of course, the Sh'ias back then were much more radical than today because the sect was very new and active then,

Imam Bukhari said, "I don’t see any difference between praying Salah behind a Jahmi or a (Shia) Rafidhi and a Christian or a Jew. They (Jahmis/Rafidhis) are not to be greeted, nor are they to be visited, nor are they to be married, nor is their testimony to be accepted, nor are their sacrifices to be eaten."  

[Thou Exalted]

I agree that not all Shia's are Muslim, but that also constitutes that they are muslims as well. I don't believe in all that "Imams Above Prophets" stuff they preach, I just like to go by the Qur'an and the teachings of the Prophet (PBUH & SAW). I also believe that as long as a person is Pious enough to believe in God in which ever way (Jews/Christians/Muslims/Etc.) are accepted to Heaven while even people on the "right" path will do sins and be sent to hell.  

[[ Absolut Terror ]]

Haydar the Truthful

I agree that not all Shia's are Muslim, but that also constitutes that they are muslims as well. I don't believe in all that "Imams Above Prophets" stuff they preach, I just like to go by the Qur'an and the teachings of the Prophet (PBUH & SAW). I also believe that as long as a person is Pious enough to believe in God in which ever way (Jews/Christians/Muslims/Etc.) are accepted to Heaven while even people on the "right" path will do sins and be sent to hell.

So what it is about your beliefs that makes you call yourself Sh'ia?  

[Thou Exalted]

Well, I suppose I could say I'm just a Muslim without any side, but due to being raised this way I can be viewed as a rational Shia, not those traitors. Now I read that website you posted saying how Shia originates from the sabates or whatever their tribe is called, but I believe I follow the group of Muslims who were by Ali at the Funeral of The Prophet (SAW) while there were a majority of muslims choosing Abu Bakr and from what I remember, Creating Noise enough that the Prophet (SAW) could not write his will before he died. Also the resource you provided states Shi'ism started at the time of the Caliph Umar with The Persian, Christian, And Jew who took to be hypocrites of Islam.  

[[ Absolut Terror ]]

Haydar the Truthful

Well, I suppose I could say I'm just a Muslim without any side, but due to being raised this way I can be viewed as a rational Shia, not those traitors. Now I read that website you posted saying how Shia originates from the sabates or whatever their tribe is called, but I believe I follow the group of Muslims who were by Ali at the Funeral of The Prophet (SAW) while there were a majority of muslims choosing Abu Bakr and from what I remember, Creating Noise enough that the Prophet (SAW) could not write his will before he died. Also the resource you provided states Shi'ism started at the time of the Caliph Umar with The Persian, Christian, And Jew who took to be hypocrites of Islam.

Prophets leave no inheritance or estate. So Muhammad [sallallahu alayhi wasallam] would not have written a will appointing his next leader.

Shi'ism is based on the concept of the alleged existence of 12 infallible imams. Do you believe that? Or do you simply believe that Ali should have been Khalifa?

You do look like you're very understanding and agree with the general body of Muslims in terms of religion. If I say anything against the Sh'ia, I mean the extreme kinds who broke off from Islam.

Also, Shi'ism as a separate religious belief did start with those things. Even though there were some Sahaba who supported Ali, they were not "Shi'a" per se.

There was much wisdom in the Shura selecting Abu Bakr. He was the first adult male to become Muslim. He was the man who made Hijra with the Prophet [sallallahu alayhi wasallam]. He was referred to as Muhammad's "companion" by Allah Himself. Shi'as will bring forth many Ahadith praising Ali, but similar Ahadith can be found with regards to many other Sahaba, especially Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman.  

[Thou Exalted]

[ Absolut Terror ]

Haydar the Truthful

Well, I suppose I could say I'm just a Muslim without any side, but due to being raised this way I can be viewed as a rational Shia, not those traitors. Now I read that website you posted saying how Shia originates from the sabates or whatever their tribe is called, but I believe I follow the group of Muslims who were by Ali at the Funeral of The Prophet (SAW) while there were a majority of muslims choosing Abu Bakr and from what I remember, Creating Noise enough that the Prophet (SAW) could not write his will before he died. Also the resource you provided states Shi'ism started at the time of the Caliph Umar with The Persian, Christian, And Jew who took to be hypocrites of Islam.

Since when would Muhammad [sallalahu alayhi wasallam] be writing a will? Prophets leave no inheritance or estate. So Muhammad would not have written a will appointing his next leader.

Shi'ism is based on the concept of the alleged existence of 12 infallible imams. Do you believe that? Or do you simply believe that Ali should have been Khalifa?

You do look like you're very understanding and agree with the general body of Muslims in terms of religion. If I say anything against the Sh'ia, I mean the extreme kinds who broke off from Islam.

I do believe that the 12 Imam's deserved to be shown as well, Imams. But I DO NOT believe that they are above God's Prophets, So it's in the mix, I do agree there are extremists of Sh'ia but that goes for Sunni's too, and any part of religion.

Basically I'm not gonna get caught in this fight for who's correct, I simply believe in what the Prophet (SAW) has said and professed it without stabbing anyone in the back. I agree the Sh'ia who went against Ali are enemies as well, but I do not believe all Sh'ia are like this. Just the ones with doubts in their minds.  

[[ Absolut Terror ]]

Sorry, I edited my last post a bit at about the same time as your reply.

Anyway. Where is your proof for the 12 imams in the Qur'an?

What do you think of Khomeini? He believed that the Imams were greater than the Prophets and Angels.  

[Thou Exalted]

I have read from sources of the Imams being persecuted and not being able to spread knowledge of Islam, I do not believe of those "Secret Knowledge" books the site you posted before sites that some Sh'ia believe, That claim is absurd.

I really dislike politics so I could care less who says what, All I need is Allah because any leader these days is corrupt, Sh'ia or not.

I just find some of the stuff posted ridiculous and if this is true, then I do not believe in it at all. I'd haven't read all the Articles in that "Ahlel Bayt" site but I'd like to see how Sunni's view The beginning of Islam through Prophet Muhammad (PBUH + SAW) call for his Brother, Successor, and he who would carry on Islam. Imam Ali (A.S) was of course approved by both views to have accepted this offer all three times, and so on so forth The Prophet (PBUH + SAW) gave him the position of authority.  

[[ Absolut Terror ]]

Haydar the Truthful

I have read from sources of the Imams being persecuted and not being able to spread knowledge of Islam, I do not believe of those "Secret Knowledge" books the site you posted before sites that some Sh'ia believe, That claim is absurd.

I really dislike politics so I could care less who says what, All I need is Allah because any leader these days is corrupt, Sh'ia or not.

I just find some of the stuff posted ridiculous and if this is true, then I do not believe in it at all. I'd haven't read all the Articles in that "Ahlel Bayt" site but I'd like to see how Sunni's view The beginning of Islam through Prophet Muhammad (PBUH + SAW) call for his Brother, Successor, and he who would carry on Islam. Imam Ali (A.S) was of course approved by both views to have accepted this offer all three times, and so on so forth The Prophet (PBUH + SAW) gave him the position of authority.

That website quotes pretty well-known Shi'a sources.

Also, the salutation "alayhi salam" is for Prophets, not anyone else.


What proof is there that he appointed him to be the next leader? Also, what kind of authority was being referred to?