Wicca: How do I argue with this?

[Namikikyo]

Quote:

Wicca itself was "created" in the 1940's, although officially in '54. Gerald Garner founded it and his ways are referred to as Gardnerian, from which came various others such as Alexandrian, Cochranian, Dianic......anyways...A Solitary Witch does not have to be initiated 1st, although, this is down to a persons own beliefs. The beauty of Wicca is the fact that there is no hard and fast rule in that respect, to each their own as the saying goes. Some Wiccans do in fact believe that a Solitary Witch (and from this, Kitchen Witch, Hedgewitch) should be inititiated 1st, but again, this is down to the individuals beliefs. Some Solitaries do self initiate, but many don't believe this to be necessary. Many Solitaries are Eclectic (just meaning that they take from various pantheons etc) but some do have more specific beliefs to one Pantheon.

Witchcraft indeed is a whole other thing, but it goes hand in hand with Solitary Wicca, though certainly not essential I do know Solitaries that do not practice the Craft.

Also, many Solitaries do look to the Old Ways, but not all. I find Scott Cunningham to be a great writer on Solitary Wicca, amounst others, and in particular when I was starting out, "A Guide to The Solitary Practitioner".

I was arguing about initiation with another in www.spiritualforums.com, But she's got me stumped. How do I argue with this?  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

I'm going to reply to this as if it were an actual post here in the forums, as if I were talking to the person who posted this; I know I'm not replying directly to you 3nodding .

Quote:

Wicca itself was "created" in the 1940's, although officially in '54. Gerald Garner founded it and his ways are referred to as Gardnerian, from which came various others such as Alexandrian, Cochranian, Dianic......

Cochranian? You mean the 1734 tradition? I'm not entirely sure that is a Wiccan tradition.
Dianic is not a valid tradition of Wicca anymore either. It has changed too much and does not follow the core of Wicca.

Quote:

anyways...A Solitary Witch does not have to be initiated 1st, although, this is down to a persons own beliefs.

True, a witch doesn't need initiation. However, if one desires to be a witch and practice Wicca, you bet your a** you need to be initiated.
Are you perhaps making the error that witch = Wiccan?

Quote:

The beauty of Wicca is the fact that there is no hard and fast rule in that respect, to each their own as the saying goes.

Except there is. Gardner wrote about it quite a bit in his books. Initiation is a requirement, and it must flow from male to female, female to male.

Quote:

Some Wiccans do in fact believe that a Solitary Witch (and from this, Kitchen Witch, Hedgewitch) should be inititiated 1st, but again, this is down to the individuals beliefs.

Actually, it would be more correct to say that ALL proper Wiccans believe that in order for one to be correctly called Wiccan, they must undergo initiation into a valid coven. They could really care less what other traditions do.

Quote:

Some Solitaries do self initiate, but many don't believe this to be necessary.

Not to mention a bit impossible.
Initiation is the performing of rites in order to be taken in to a group. If you're doing it solo, there is no group and hence no initiation. It might be a lovely dedication, but it is not an initiation.

Quote:

Many Solitaries are Eclectic (just meaning that they take from various pantheons etc) but some do have more specific beliefs to one Pantheon.

Solitary what? Solitary Eclectics are eclectic. Solitary witches? Sure they can be eclectic. Solitary Wiccans? Not really eclectic. While a PROPER solitary Wiccan can not perform the specific rites of a Wiccan ritual by his/herself, most try to do what they can to make the ritual as "Wiccan-flavored" as possible.

Quote:

Witchcraft indeed is a whole other thing, but it goes hand in hand with Solitary Wicca, though certainly not essential I do know Solitaries that do not practice the Craft.

You need to be more specific when throwing around the word "solitaries." Solitary isn't limited to Wicca or witchcraft stare .
Witchcraft goes hand-in-hand with Wicca, period. Wicca incorporates a great deal of witchcraft but the two are not synonymous.

Quote:

Also, many Solitaries do look to the Old Ways, but not all. I find Scott Cunningham to be a great writer on Solitary Wicca, amounst others, and in particular when I was starting out, "A Guide to The Solitary Practitioner".

Scott Cunningham writes great books about Eclectic Neo-paganism witchcraft. His books are not about Wicca.  

[Namikikyo]

Thank you so much, I feel like she's throwing bad information at me.. But I don't have the information to counter hers..

Thank you again. smile  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Namikikyo

Thank you so much, I feel like she's throwing bad information at me.. But I don't have the information to counter hers..

Thank you again. smile

No problem; hope it helps smile  

[Namikikyo]

Violet Song jat Shariff

Namikikyo

Thank you so much, I feel like she's throwing bad information at me.. But I don't have the information to counter hers..

Thank you again. smile

No problem; hope it helps smile

Oh it will, I am so used to the hostile grounds of Gaia conversation that it's hard to hold back on another website. rolleyes  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

1734 is not Wicca. Cochraine would have spit acid if you told him he was a Wiccan. He disliked Gardner and his religion.  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Sanguina Cruenta

1734 is not Wicca. Cochraine would have spit acid if you told him he was a Wiccan. He disliked Gardner and his religion.

3nodding
I couldn't quite recall for certain. I remember the 1734 tradition being talked about a bit in the A&J archives (someone who was/is on the list is/was a member of that tradition). Apparently, if that person was correct, "1734" is code for one of the names of their deities.  

[Aryain Flames]

Violet is very much right. Anyone who tells you that witch=wicca, or that you can self-initiate is just plain wrong.  

[doistu]

I agree. Some people are introduced to a false ideal and they never let it drop. For some reason a lot of people have this habit of thinking they're always right.  

[GoddessAttuned]

Violet Song jat Shariff

I'm going to reply to this as if it were an actual post here in the forums, as if I were talking to the person who posted this; I know I'm not replying directly to you 3nodding .

Quote:

Wicca itself was "created" in the 1940's, although officially in '54. Gerald Garner founded it and his ways are referred to as Gardnerian, from which came various others such as Alexandrian, Cochranian, Dianic......

Cochranian? You mean the 1734 tradition? I'm not entirely sure that is a Wiccan tradition.
Dianic is not a valid tradition of Wicca anymore either. It has changed too much and does not follow the core of Wicca.

Quote:

anyways...A Solitary Witch does not have to be initiated 1st, although, this is down to a persons own beliefs.

True, a witch doesn't need initiation. However, if one desires to be a witch and practice Wicca, you bet your a** you need to be initiated.
Are you perhaps making the error that witch = Wiccan?

Quote:

The beauty of Wicca is the fact that there is no hard and fast rule in that respect, to each their own as the saying goes.

Except there is. Gardner wrote about it quite a bit in his books. Initiation is a requirement, and it must flow from male to female, female to male.

Quote:

Some Wiccans do in fact believe that a Solitary Witch (and from this, Kitchen Witch, Hedgewitch) should be inititiated 1st, but again, this is down to the individuals beliefs.

Actually, it would be more correct to say that ALL proper Wiccans believe that in order for one to be correctly called Wiccan, they must undergo initiation into a valid coven. They could really care less what other traditions do.

Quote:

Some Solitaries do self initiate, but many don't believe this to be necessary.

Not to mention a bit impossible.
Initiation is the performing of rites in order to be taken in to a group. If you're doing it solo, there is no group and hence no initiation. It might be a lovely dedication, but it is not an initiation.

Quote:

Many Solitaries are Eclectic (just meaning that they take from various pantheons etc) but some do have more specific beliefs to one Pantheon.

Solitary what? Solitary Eclectics are eclectic. Solitary witches? Sure they can be eclectic. Solitary Wiccans? Not really eclectic. While a PROPER solitary Wiccan can not perform the specific rites of a Wiccan ritual by his/herself, most try to do what they can to make the ritual as "Wiccan-flavored" as possible.

Quote:

Witchcraft indeed is a whole other thing, but it goes hand in hand with Solitary Wicca, though certainly not essential I do know Solitaries that do not practice the Craft.

You need to be more specific when throwing around the word "solitaries." Solitary isn't limited to Wicca or witchcraft stare .
Witchcraft goes hand-in-hand with Wicca, period. Wicca incorporates a great deal of witchcraft but the two are not synonymous.

Quote:

Also, many Solitaries do look to the Old Ways, but not all. I find Scott Cunningham to be a great writer on Solitary Wicca, amounst others, and in particular when I was starting out, "A Guide to The Solitary Practitioner".

Scott Cunningham writes great books about Eclectic Neo-paganism witchcraft. His books are not about Wicca.

Goodness you know alot O: