Another "Wicca: How do I argue with this?" question.

[Namikikyo]

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As you say Delirium, no point in arguing about it. This argument is never going to be resolved. Gardner, hmm yes Gardner - manufactured a system from Masonic Order, Rosicrucians, Golden Dawn, etc. The question you need to think about is what was there before Gardner ? The path I try to follow because it fits me is pre-christian and the word Wica [which became Wicca] was first used by the Saxons round about 6th century. Lineage does not enter the argument because current wicca has none - put together in mid-50's and I personally know pre-50's wiccans and HPS's who gave up covens to become solitary because of the hierarchical forms used. It is said that in the UK, covens are a minority. But, it doesn't matter - there are many paths to follow in the Earth-based faith which is wicca.[ Fertility is an aspect of the Earth goddess and has been since the last Ice Age.]
So, Bright Blessings, Delirium.

I thought I had done a pretty good job at explaining what Wicca was. But, I really have no information about anything pre-dateing Wicca.

I'm stumped again, Any help? I swear this will be the last one.

 

[Sanguina Cruenta]

This is how I would respond:

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The path I try to follow because it fits me is pre-christian

Prove it. Is it reconstruction? What are you reconstructing? Are you practising something unbroken? In what sense can it still be called "pre-christian" if it has been influenced by 1500 years of Christian culture?

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and the word Wica [which became Wicca] was first used by the Saxons round about 6th century.

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Gardner said he heard the word "Wica". The saxon word was wicca (note the SMALL "w", as it is not a proper noun) and wicce, meaning "witch" and pronounced "witcha". Not the same word as modern "Wicca", simply the source of inspiration for it.

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Lineage does not enter the argument because current wicca has none

Lineage certainly does enter the argument, because if current Wicca has none, then it is not Wicca, now is it?

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- put together in mid-50's and I personally know pre-50's wiccans and HPS's

Names, please. We want to check vouches.

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It is said that in the UK, covens are a minority.

For witches, sure. For Wiccans, no.

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But, it doesn't matter - there are many paths to follow in the Earth-based faith which is wicca.

No, there aren't. There is one Wicca and it is Wicca. Calling other religions, spiritualities or crafts "Wicca" does not make them Wicca, and actually demeans them as individual paths with their own individual beauty by attempting to lump them in with another religion that they are dissimilar to. As a non-Wiccan witch, I am insulted, and I am also insulted for the Wiccans whom I know.

Wicca is not earth-based. It is fertility-focused.

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[ Fertility is an aspect of the Earth goddess and has been since the last Ice Age.]

Fertility is an aspect of nature

Who is this earth goddess you refer to? You mention the "last ice age". Are you aware that technically, we are in an ice age right now, as the polar ice caps are frozen? Or were you using non-scientific parlance? Were you referring to the Little Ice Age? Which Ice Age? Saying "the last one" doesn't help me, because I'm unsure if you know when the last one was.

Please provide some archaeological sources for your claim that an earth goddess around since whenever you are putting the last ice age at had an aspect of fertility related to her?

And what does ANY of this have to do with the goddess of Wicca or whether or not Wicca is a fertility religion/

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So, Bright Blessings, Delirium.

Who end by blessing me when you have just insulted my path and that of others? If you want me to be blessed, start by respecting the religions of others enough to call them by their correct titles.

Or words to that effect. It's late. Like really late. Like, I haven't been up this late in WEEKS.

 

[Nattfodd]

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As you say Delirium, no point in arguing about it. This argument is never going to be resolved. Gardner, hmm yes Gardner - manufactured a system from Masonic Order, Rosicrucians, Golden Dawn, etc. The question you need to think about is what was there before Gardner ?

Prior to Gardner, Witchcraft was outlawed in the UK. Gardner claimed to have been initiated by the New Forest Coven, a body which is questioned to have even existed.

We can easily see though, that Wicca was made up of Rosicrucian ceremony, Golden Dawn-era Ceremonial Magic, and smatterings of Thelema. This is linked ever-so-easily. There is no evidence to say that anything connected to 'an old faith' made it into Wicca, or even existed at all.

As I recall, there is strong evidence to suggest that a bit of Wicca is mere fabrication. Knowing this, and the circumstances of the times, it is a bit of a stretch to say that anything Wicca-esque survived at all beyond a few generations of similar fabrication during the period in which Witchcraft was illegal.

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The path I try to follow because it fits me is pre-christian and the word Wica [which became Wicca] was first used by the Saxons round about 6th century. Lineage does not enter the argument because current wicca has none - put together in mid-50's and I personally know pre-50's wiccans and HPS's who gave up covens to become solitary because of the hierarchical forms used.

If they were in covens, they would have some sort of information -- dates, book of shadows, lineages -- about their former coven work. If they destroyed this information then they can honestly lay no claim, other than "believe my word, if you will," about practicing anything along the same lines. Their word provides no real evidence as to these traditions, therefore, essentially, it's a useless thing to bring up.

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It is said that in the UK, covens are a minority.

Thanks, Ravenwolf!

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But, it doesn't matter - there are many paths to follow in the Earth-based faith which is wicca.[ Fertility is an aspect of the Earth goddess and has been since the last Ice Age.]
So, Bright Blessings, Delirium.

Point to the Wicca FAQ if necessary. Until it is proven that there are 'many paths' beyond the published writings of Gardner, there aren't any. As far as i'm aware, nothing has discredited Gardner as the rightful creator of Wicca as is known, therefore, it will abide by his rules.

---

Personally, I find this a rather weak response by myself, but only because I don't have the context of this discussion.  

[Namikikyo]

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=414315#post414315

This is the entire argument! I even used this guild's information as well as others just to make sure I wasn't getting anything wrong!

So why is this old fart still trying to fight with me? I'm really just waiting for a real Wiccan to come in here and kick his sorry a**. D:< But until then, I will argue for them.

 

[Nattfodd]

I would register myself and post, but I don't want to get banned as they'd probably take it as some sort of 4chan-esque invasion... with literacy and proper debate tactics.

I think the answers by myself are pretty well, though. The answers that Sanguina Cruenta gave could work too, but they might be a bit too hard-edged for a forum like that.

Edit: What's up with the fluffy infodump posted? @_@ Did that come from here?  

[Namikikyo]

Nattfodd

I would register myself and post, but I don't want to get banned as they'd probably take it as some sort of 4chan-esque invasion... with literacy and proper debate tactics.

I think the answers by myself are pretty well, though. The answers that Sanguina Cruenta gave could work too, but they might be a bit too hard-edged for a forum like that.

Edit: What's up with the fluffy infodump posted? @_@ Did that come from here?

Nope. That's a man older then you, my friend. Goes to show ignorance has no age limit.

 

[Namikikyo]

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Hello Delirium

There are many different branches and sub-classes of Wicca. The most traditional was covens - no solitaries, etc etc etc etc etc. However, since Gardner there has been some who expanded Wicca. One very controversial idea was by Raymond Buckland who started up Seax (or Saxon) Wicca, who allowed for self-initiation (not dedication, I mean the second part after all the learning and so on - initiation) as he understood that there was not always a "friendly neighbourhood coven" around to initiate you into Wicca, and so allowed you also to "auto-setup" a coven. There's also the other branches, Alexandrian (basically more emphasis on ceremonial magick), Dianic (sometimes ONLY believes in the Goddess, depending on the coven or individual), and traditional Wicca to the area (which include the names of their own Gods and Goddesses - such as Welsh, Irish, Scottish, Greek, etc). The original (or "pure" as some call it) form of Wicca was very very coven orientated.

What you find in the "Wiccan" forum is not from uneducated people. Calantiriel for one is not a Wiccan and has said many times, she practises Traditional Witchcraft, not Wicca; however is educated more than most on the beliefs of Wicca - traditional or otherwise. She has wrote a pool of knowledge in the Wiccan forum which many have read and complimented on - both experienced Wiccans who have followed the path most of their lives and for new seekers.

I just wanted to clear up for any Seekers of Wicca that Gardnerian Wicca is not the only type of Wicca as this thread confuses it quite a bit due to the two different types of Wiccan paths. Both are true paths, are neither are false. Trust your heart as your own path is the only one that really matters

 

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

That post makes a Vivi sad emo .  

[Nattfodd]

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There are many different branches and sub-classes of Wicca.

There are a few sub-classes of Wicca that can all trace lineage back to Gerald Gardner. The most noted of which being Alexandrian Wicca. Other traditions that cannot trace lineage back to Gardner are -- you guessed it -- not Wicca.

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The most traditional was covens - no solitaries, etc etc etc etc etc. However, since Gardner there has been some who expanded Wicca. One very controversial idea was by Raymond Buckland who started up Seax (or Saxon) Wicca, who allowed for self-initiation (not dedication, I mean the second part after all the learning and so on - initiation) as he understood that there was not always a "friendly neighbourhood coven" around to initiate you into Wicca, and so allowed you also to "auto-setup" a coven.

Seax-Wica is not Wicca. Raymond Buckland is not described at large as an oathbreaker (as one would be, if they shared the mysteries of Wicca in writing,) as all he did was spread outer-court material. If I remember correctly, the validity of his claims of initiation into Gardnerian Wicca has also been questioned.

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There's also the other branches, Alexandrian (basically more emphasis on ceremonial magick),

Alexandrian Wicca IS proper Wicca, as it properly traces its lineage back to Gardner, and shares most of its rites. They are nearly identical, with differences you can expect from passing information verbally.

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Dianic (sometimes ONLY believes in the Goddess, depending on the coven or individual),

Dianic Wicca is not Wicca. Wicca focuses mainly on opposite-sex rites, and cannot be based purely upon one gender. That's not to say that Wicca is homophobic, it's just not geared towards homosexuality or merely a single sex. And, if I remember correctly on this subject as well, Dianic Wicca is being moved to being called 'Dianic Witchcraft' in order to observe the fact that they are not, in fact, Wicca at all.

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and traditional Wicca to the area (which include the names of their own Gods and Goddesses - such as Welsh, Irish, Scottish, Greek, etc). The original (or "pure" as some call it) form of Wicca was very very coven orientated.

Which is more likely hedgewitchery, hereditary witchcraft, and not, absolutely not, Wicca.

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What you find in the "Wiccan" forum is not from uneducated people. Calantiriel for one is not a Wiccan and has said many times, she practises Traditional Witchcraft, not Wicca; however is educated more than most on the beliefs of Wicca - traditional or otherwise. She has wrote a pool of knowledge in the Wiccan forum which many have read and complimented on - both experienced Wiccans who have followed the path most of their lives and for new seekers.

Some people can be more educated than most on the belief of Wicca, because nobody really has the intellectual integrity to say, okay, THIS is Wicca. However, in an environment like M&R, we are required by strict guidelines to go to lengths to say what is and isn't true Wicca.

You're asserting that a person who is NOT a Wiccan knows about Wicca. This is a ridiculous claim. The person who is an authority on Wicca is a person who is initiated into a lineaged coven by Gerald Gardner. Aside from that, there are those who can study, in a scholarly manner, the history and works within the scope of paganism and Witchcraft. Murrayism is dubunked. There is no 'ye olde religion.' Wicca is not Ravenwolf. Wicca is Gardner, because Gardner created it and gave it definition and practice. Those who aren't initiated into Gardner's systems don't know what Wicca is. Period.

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I just wanted to clear up for any Seekers of Wicca that Gardnerian Wicca is not the only type of Wicca as this thread confuses it quite a bit due to the two different types of Wiccan paths. Both are true paths, are neither are false. Trust your heart as your own path is the only one that really matters

Yes, there are more paths than Gardnerian -- there's also Alexandrian, and any other legitimate Wicca tradition that follows its lineage back to Gerald Gardner. Without Gardner, you don't know the mysteries, and you don't know what Wicca is -- so you can't write about it, or tell anyone. (Which is what a lot of authors have done anyway -- we call this intellectual dishonesty. These authors know what they are doing is wrong, but insist on ignoring the facts and getting that easily-earned $$$ from people who don't know the difference!)

Neither path is false though. One just isn't Wicca. It's okay to call yourself an Witch, a Pagan, a student of neo-paganism. Calling yourself a Wiccan without knowing what Wicca is, where it came from, or the mysteries therein, is like going into a surgery room claiming you're a doctor when you've never even stepped foot into medical school. It's just plain dishonest.  

[Namikikyo]

Violet Song jat Shariff

That post makes a Vivi sad emo .

The very same people say that Madonna is a "Closet Wiccan".

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=32006

I love the spiritualism in the website, They their veiws on Wicca and Paganism or no better then the fluffies we deal with daily...

The only thing that makes this sadder, Is that they are all your ages and up.

This is something to cry about.

And aparently they have battled with someone before about this;

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Oh no, not another debate on what is and what is not Wicca. Now if you are going back to the source of Wicca then Yes the Goddess is a Earth Goddess, She is also a Moon Goddess. Delirium if you want to believe that you have the one true way of Wicca, then my all means, I will not stop you, but it seams to me to be a little silly. Either you are a Gerardian or an Alexsandrian Wiccan, in which case you are saying things that are plainly wrong when it comes to the dogma, yes dogma of those paths, or you belong to one of the pop up paths that there are a million of which have no connection to Gardener what so ever, in which case claiming to be following the one true way seam a bit...silly really, sorry to say it. Now I recomend you read Gardener's work and the works of those directly in his lieage. For exsample, Wicca is intended for Covens, but that do not mean one have to be in a Coven to practice Gerardian Wicca, though one have to be initiated by one.

This has to be killing people! When will the ignorance stop?

 

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Namikikyo

Violet Song jat Shariff

That post makes a Vivi sad emo .

The very same people say that Madonna is a "Closet Wiccan".

]http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=32006

I'm not sure if that makes me want to laugh or have brain-death.

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I love the spiritualism in the website, They their veiws on Wicca and Paganism or no better then the fluffies we deal with daily...

The only thing that makes this sadder, Is that they are all your ages and up.

This is something to cry about.

I know sad
It is a good reminder though that fluff comes in all ages. I tend to forget that some days xd

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And aparently they have battled with someone before about this;

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Oh no, not another debate on what is and what is not Wicca. Now if you are going back to the source of Wicca then Yes the Goddess is a Earth Goddess, She is also a Moon Goddess. Delirium if you want to believe that you have the one true way of Wicca, then my all means, I will not stop you, but it seams to me to be a little silly. Either you are a Gerardian or an Alexsandrian Wiccan, in which case you are saying things that are plainly wrong when it comes to the dogma, yes dogma of those paths, or you belong to one of the pop up paths that there are a million of which have no connection to Gardener what so ever, in which case claiming to be following the one true way seam a bit...silly really, sorry to say it. Now I recomend you read Gardener's work and the works of those directly in his lieage. For exsample, Wicca is intended for Covens, but that do not mean one have to be in a Coven to practice Gerardian Wicca, though one have to be initiated by one.

I could rip that to s**t.
I would never last on that forum. They'd ban me for being a mega-b***h.  

[Nattfodd]

I read the few updates in posts and I guess a moderator has asked the debate to be discontinued (which, I knew, was inevitable.)

I never would've thought, especially a few years ago, that i'd be recommending Gaia over other forums for a discussion of this nature, but I believe you may get more information here than from the mish-mash of pseudo-historical babble they're trying to give you there.  

[Aryain Flames]

Well, I realize that it is rather too late to be commenting on this, but I would simply like to agree Nattfodd that gaia may indeed be the best website I have yet seen for debates of this nature. The people here simply seem to be more informed then others on different websites.