Why is it the older weapons that have stoppping power?

[Ubasti]

Okay, take a modern 5.56mm NATO round and compare it to the older 7.62mm NATO round, and guess which one has more stopping power. It's the 7.62. Now compare it to one of the standard WW1/WW2 rifle rounds, like the German 8mm. Yet again, the older round has more stopping power. Now compare that round to, say, the minie ball fired by the Springfield 1860 rifle musket so popular in the American Civil War. Guess what? The rifle-musket not only has more stopping power than the German rifle, it probably has the most stopping power of any standard issue regular infantryman's firearm ever issued to an army. These minie balls were lethal. An arm or leg would generally resulted in amputation, and it had nothing to do with crappy Civil War medical care. It had more to do with the fact that a minie ball would quite literally shatter the bone in the limb into small fragments that had pretty much no chance of healing, resulting in an amputation. Even in the modern day you'd see about the same amputation rate from gunshot wounds, as we still don't have the tech to put bones that heavily damaged back together again. Then we consider the way the soft lead round would expand when it hit the target. Ouch. I repeat. The Civil War rifle-musket fired what is probably the most powerful round to ever see use with the run of the mill infantry. I mean, will a 5.56mm pulverize a bone completely like a minie ball would? I think not.

So what is with this trend? Why do the newer weapons always have less stopping power than the older ones?

As you can probably see, I quite admire the Civil War rifle-musket as a weapon of warfare.  

[OberFeldwebel]

I don't think it'd pulverize the bone like the musket does since it's a smaller round, but I've seen a GIF amongst other pictures of Iraqis rittled with 5.56, it definitely breaks bones.

In the GIF an iraqi or whatnot with an RPG kneels to fire, get's shot at by probably a whole squad, gets nailed in the torso (probably the kill shot and then again in the head definitely a kill shot) and goes limp, arm locked and held him up, got nailed a bunch more times one being in the arm, the arm suddenly bent and twisted in unnatural directions and he fell over after that.

Also saw the autopsy photos from the FBI or what not about the .40 S&W, shattered a leg bone or the arm, can't remember.

But it definitely didn't blow it up like the musket did on Lock N Load.  

[Fresnel]

OberFeldwebel

I don't think it'd pulverize the bone like the musket does since it's a smaller round, but I've seen a GIF amongst other pictures of Iraqis rittled with 5.56, it definitely breaks bones.

In the GIF an iraqi or whatnot with an RPG kneels to fire, get's shot at by probably a whole squad, gets nailed in the torso (probably the kill shot and then again in the head definitely a kill shot) and goes limp, arm locked and held him up, got nailed a bunch more times one being in the arm, the arm suddenly bent and twisted in unnatural directions and he fell over after that.

I think that was incoming fire from a single M249. Though if it was an RPG, that means he was likely shooting at a vehicle. Which would mean that was probably a hummer-mounted M240.  

[OberFeldwebel]

Fresnel

OberFeldwebel

I don't think it'd pulverize the bone like the musket does since it's a smaller round, but I've seen a GIF amongst other pictures of Iraqis rittled with 5.56, it definitely breaks bones.

In the GIF an iraqi or whatnot with an RPG kneels to fire, get's shot at by probably a whole squad, gets nailed in the torso (probably the kill shot and then again in the head definitely a kill shot) and goes limp, arm locked and held him up, got nailed a bunch more times one being in the arm, the arm suddenly bent and twisted in unnatural directions and he fell over after that.

I think that was incoming fire from a single M249. Though if it was an RPG, that means he was likely shooting at a vehicle. Which would mean that was probably a hummer-mounted M240.

Well, those dumbasses use an RPG whenever they can anyway.

But yeah, being a mounted gun would explain how accurate the fire was.

Anyway, M249 and M240 is 5.56 isn't it?  

[Ubasti]

OberFeldwebel

Fresnel

OberFeldwebel

I don't think it'd pulverize the bone like the musket does since it's a smaller round, but I've seen a GIF amongst other pictures of Iraqis rittled with 5.56, it definitely breaks bones.

In the GIF an iraqi or whatnot with an RPG kneels to fire, get's shot at by probably a whole squad, gets nailed in the torso (probably the kill shot and then again in the head definitely a kill shot) and goes limp, arm locked and held him up, got nailed a bunch more times one being in the arm, the arm suddenly bent and twisted in unnatural directions and he fell over after that.

I think that was incoming fire from a single M249. Though if it was an RPG, that means he was likely shooting at a vehicle. Which would mean that was probably a hummer-mounted M240.

Well, those dumbasses use an RPG whenever they can anyway.

But yeah, being a mounted gun would explain how accurate the fire was.

Anyway, M249 and M240 is 5.56 isn't it?

No. M249 is 5.56 NATO and M240 is 7.62 NATO.

I just don't get why weapons get less powerful as time goes on.  

[OberFeldwebel]

Ubasti

OberFeldwebel

Fresnel

OberFeldwebel

I don't think it'd pulverize the bone like the musket does since it's a smaller round, but I've seen a GIF amongst other pictures of Iraqis rittled with 5.56, it definitely breaks bones.

In the GIF an iraqi or whatnot with an RPG kneels to fire, get's shot at by probably a whole squad, gets nailed in the torso (probably the kill shot and then again in the head definitely a kill shot) and goes limp, arm locked and held him up, got nailed a bunch more times one being in the arm, the arm suddenly bent and twisted in unnatural directions and he fell over after that.

I think that was incoming fire from a single M249. Though if it was an RPG, that means he was likely shooting at a vehicle. Which would mean that was probably a hummer-mounted M240.

Well, those dumbasses use an RPG whenever they can anyway.

But yeah, being a mounted gun would explain how accurate the fire was.

Anyway, M249 and M240 is 5.56 isn't it?

No. M249 is 5.56 NATO and M240 is 7.62 NATO.

I just don't get why weapons get less powerful as time goes on.

Oh yeah!
That's right. M240 replaced the M60.



They do this crap all the time.
Like the switch from .45 LC to .38 because 'they could carry more of it'.
Ended up that they would need to fire much more .38 to take down someone so it was counter productive.
Also they were hopped up on drugs so the .38 wouldn't stop them.

So they went to the 1911 when it came around and now they've got the M9.
: /  

[uryu ishida]

Ubasti

OberFeldwebel

Fresnel

OberFeldwebel

I don't think it'd pulverize the bone like the musket does since it's a smaller round, but I've seen a GIF amongst other pictures of Iraqis rittled with 5.56, it definitely breaks bones.

In the GIF an iraqi or whatnot with an RPG kneels to fire, get's shot at by probably a whole squad, gets nailed in the torso (probably the kill shot and then again in the head definitely a kill shot) and goes limp, arm locked and held him up, got nailed a bunch more times one being in the arm, the arm suddenly bent and twisted in unnatural directions and he fell over after that.

I think that was incoming fire from a single M249. Though if it was an RPG, that means he was likely shooting at a vehicle. Which would mean that was probably a hummer-mounted M240.

Well, those dumbasses use an RPG whenever they can anyway.

But yeah, being a mounted gun would explain how accurate the fire was.

Anyway, M249 and M240 is 5.56 isn't it?

No. M249 is 5.56 NATO and M240 is 7.62 NATO.

I just don't get why weapons get less powerful as time goes on.

Because concessions have to be made.

They wanted a round that they could have a soldier carry more of, and that recoiled little. This came at the price of power.  

[Man of the Demoneye]

My theory goes like this anyways...

The olde muskets and muzzleloaders have a big round because you could only shoot one at a time. If you take the same amount of time per shot, and it has the range and accuracy of a brick, may as well make it as big as possible. You should also remember the tactics back then too. Both sides lined up and toook shots at each other, so you really have a wall of giant lead balls flying.

As time marched on, accuracy and sharpshooters became much more important and decreasing the size of the round for more manageable recoil as well as more shots available. The 5.56 likely came about for these reasons and the fact that you don't necissarily need to kill your enemy on the battlefield, just make it so he can't ever fight back. Think about the Vietnam documentaries, all the wounded coming back puts a dent in morale back home.

again, just a theory of mine.  

[OO23OO]

OberFeldwebel

They do this crap all the time.
Like the switch from .45 LC to .38 because 'they could carry more of it'.
Ended up that they would need to fire much more .38 to take down someone so it was counter productive.
Also they were hopped up on drugs so the .38 wouldn't stop them.

So they went to the 1911 when it came around and now they've got the M9.
: /

I never thought about it like that, we went from a .45 to a .38, back to a .45, only to go back to a .38. Awesome.  

[ArmasTermin]

I think it has to do with:

The change of warfare tactics

NATO bullshit

The use of body armor (I'd like to see a demo of dated rounds on modern armor)

And of course the theory that more is better.



I mean why have a high-caliber revolver with six shots when you can cram 20 9mm rounds into a single magazine? Or what good are 7+1 .45 caliber rounds when you can stuff 15 (or is the M9 up to 17 or 20 now?) into a mag. Same goes with assault rifles. We used to put a few .30 caliber cartridges in an M1 and did pretty well, but now we need 30 little ones to get the job done...

Is anyone actually doing studies to see if this is making things better or worse? Because me sitting on my bed thinking about numbers and bullet types is one thing, but I think the guys with the statistics and measurements have a better idea of how these things work.

Or at least I pray they do...

We should be using hollow points in everything, though. ******** the "rules" of war. It's supposed to be a battlefield, not a game of checkers. You don't see the rag-heads playing by the rules...  

[Fresnel]

ArmasTermin

We should be using hollow points in everything, though. ******** the "rules" of war. It's supposed to be a battlefield, not a game of checkers. You don't see the rag-heads playing by the rules...

The rules don't apply. Taliban weren't around to sign Hague in 1899, and Hague only applies between signer nations. Give it a read sometime, it's about a half a page long, and rather informative.

@Demoneye: A dead soldier leaves a corpse on the ground. A wounded soldier takes out two buddies to drag him, a field med kit to stabilize him, an ambulance to extract him, three medics to patch him, two packets of blood in his type, medicine, hours of surgery, and the plane to fly him home.  

[Desert_Fox_Rommel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHklhhINfcM

Starting at 2:35 they have an old musket from about the time of the American Revolution, a rifle from the American Civil War, and a German Mauser. They have a demonstration to show the damage each of the weapons would have on human flesh.

You need to keep in mind shattering bones can have fatal results, but flesh damage can be much worse.  

[Requiem ex Inferni]

Desert_Fox_Rommel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHklhhINfcM

Starting at 2:35 they have an old musket from about the time of the American Revolution, a rifle from the American Civil War, and a German Mauser. They have a demonstration to show the damage each of the weapons would have on human flesh.

You need to keep in mind shattering bones can have fatal results, but flesh damage can be much worse.

I remember that episode. The musket put a huge hole in the target.

Fresnel: I talked to a guy who was a sniper in Iraq, and he basically feels the same way.

Hell, if I ever get the .45 I plan on getting for C&C, I'm only loading it with hollow-points. If I HAVE to use it on a guy, I want to make sure he goes down and doesn't get back up.  

[Desert_Fox_Rommel]

Requiem in Mortis

Desert_Fox_Rommel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHklhhINfcM

Starting at 2:35 they have an old musket from about the time of the American Revolution, a rifle from the American Civil War, and a German Mauser. They have a demonstration to show the damage each of the weapons would have on human flesh.

You need to keep in mind shattering bones can have fatal results, but flesh damage can be much worse.

I remember that episode. The musket put a huge hole in the target.

Fresnel: I talked to a guy who was a sniper in Iraq, and he basically feels the same way.

Hell, if I ever get the .45 I plan on getting for C&C, I'm only loading it with hollow-points. If I HAVE to use it on a guy, I want to make sure he goes down and doesn't get back up.

The musket didn't even penetrate through the body. The mini ball penetrated, but made a small hole. The Mauser made a giant hole.  

[Fresnel]

Requiem in Mortis

Desert_Fox_Rommel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHklhhINfcM

Starting at 2:35 they have an old musket from about the time of the American Revolution, a rifle from the American Civil War, and a German Mauser. They have a demonstration to show the damage each of the weapons would have on human flesh.

You need to keep in mind shattering bones can have fatal results, but flesh damage can be much worse.

I remember that episode. The musket put a huge hole in the target.

Fresnel: I talked to a guy who was a sniper in Iraq, and he basically feels the same way.

Hell, if I ever get the .45 I plan on getting for C&C, I'm only loading it with hollow-points. If I HAVE to use it on a guy, I want to make sure he goes down and doesn't get back up.

I've always figured I'd carry frangible rounds. I can't see a downside, really. Except they're a buck a round or more, but ten bucks for ONE magazine isn't outrageous. And a frangible round is guaranteed to dump 100% of its energy into whatever it hits.