evil or not evil?

[LiM3 TAFFY]

I was listening to Imprint (amazing podcast) and they brought up a good discussion point. People always say Twilight has no depth, however, some characters aren't fully "evil" or "good". All the vampires are beautiful, so they don't appear evil, and all the werewolves are ripped, so they appear to be the "bad boys...and girl" but are good. A major point in this discussion is that the Volturi can be perceived as either good or evil. We don't fully know what their intentions are. Example: In New Moon, they gave the Cullens a choice; change Bella into a vampire or kill her. Why? To protect their secrets. Translation? Good intention. On the other hand, Bella and Edward are in "love"/ love, and one cannot survive without the other. Translation? Bad.

So, Twilighters. Tell me. Who do you think is evil, and why? And is there anyway their actions can also be percieved as good? (Or vice versa.)  

[Glitterbean]

I don't understand why you say, "All the vampires are beautiful, so they don't appear evil, and all the werewolves are ripped, so they appear to be the 'bad boys...and girl' but are good." Appearances don't matter; actions do. What the characters look like has nothing to do with how good or evil they are. And the Volturi's motivation to protect their secrets was simply an act of self-preservation. As Aro says in Breaking Dawn, humans have gotten to the point where they have technology that could physically hurt a vampire. Therefore, it is out of self-preservation, not benevolence, that they protect their secrets.

I would say that a few of the Volturi members are evil. For some of them, their primary motivation is their love of power. For example, Aro is so power-hungry that he killed his own sister, Didyme, so she wouldn't get in the way of his plans for domination. (This can be found on the Breaking Dawn FAQ section on Stephenie's website.) Stephenie says that Aro did truly love Didyme, and it did cause him pain to murder her, but that he simply loves power more than he loved her. Like you said, this means he is complex: he is not PURE evil (like Voldemort from the Harry Potter series, who is incapable of feeling love at all), but he definitely has a lot of evil in him.

And then there are the sadistic Jane and Caius, who obviously derive pleasure from seeing other people suffer. It can definitely be argued that those two are evil.

As Jasper points out, some of the Volturi's actions can be perceived as good, because they keep the Southern covens in check, and therefore save countless lives. However, their motivation isn't saving people, it's maintaining their dominance over the vampire world and keeping their secret. So overall, I think it can be argued that the Volturi have mostly bad intentions.  

[Twilight Scribe]

None of the characters in the series are sufficiently developed enough, really, for them to be considered good or evil; all of them need more development and fleshing out before I'd consider type-casting them like that. Of course, with what Meyer gives us, I can say this.

Edward is evil. Why? Because he's abusive.
 

[itsKaityCat]

Twilight Scribe

None of the characters in the series are sufficiently developed enough, really, for them to be considered good or evil; all of them need more development and fleshing out before I'd consider type-casting them like that. Of course, with what Meyer gives us, I can say this.

Edward is evil. Why? Because he's abusive.

and jacob is evil because he is kinda a *****... the volturi are evil because they force others to do things against their wills sometimes and force people into decisions... also edward is evil because he is a stalker.  

[Glitterbean]

I'm not sure what definition of "evil" we're working with here. I agree that the Volturi are evil (or at least, the ones who are with them willingly). But Jacob is not a *****. He doesn't have any sexual interest in Nessie, and neither does Quil towards Claire. Although they probably will once the girls are old enough, right now, they're just like big brothers, or even nannies, towards the girls. I hate when people pounce on the fact that some werewolves imprint on people when they're kids and completely ignore the fact that Stephenie has explicitly stated - multiple times - that there is no sexual attraction involved.

Also, I will grant that Edward's behavior is stalkerish, and somewhat creepy. However, I don't think it makes him evil, as there were never any perverted or malignant intentions behind it. In fact, it was exactly the opposite.  

[KimCL]

The way I see it, Jacob isn't evil because he imprints on a child. I don't consider him a ***** at all. Like Glitter said, there is no sexual attraction between the two.

As for Edward, he isn't abusive. He's a vampire. Bella's a human. He looks at her and see's this beautiful, fragile thing that needs protection. It doesn't help Bella's argument when she's so clumsy too lol. I don't see Edward as evil. I don't see the Volturi as evil either. The only evil I really see in the books is, of course, Victoria and her crew. But Victoria can be justified. Her mate for hundreds of years was slain doing the only thing he knows. I mean, I understand that they kill people, but they do it to survive.

 

[Twilight Scribe]

Maybe I should post that argument about how Edward is abusive. He also is a criminal I can back this up with evidence from the novels, and is just a tad on the side of creepy.

The Volturi are definitely my favorite vampires. They had potential, but there's nothing really in any of the books to so firmly categorize any of the characters in such a black and white way. Right now I'm writing some Volturi-centric fanfiction, and they're turning out to be completely different then what I think Meyer wanted. For one, Aro is a sociopath, Jane is a sadistic murder with a bit of I guess you could call it this an Electra-complex, and Heidi is... well, she's UNIQUE.
 

[itsKaityCat]

Edward is evil... a stalker and abusive.

1. He reads the minds of her friends and family so he always knows what she thinks about him (while I admit this is not technically abuse it does give him to power to control)
2. He watches her sleep, in her room without her permission
3. He has his sister kidnap Bella to control where she stays
4. He REMOVED the engine from her truck (again this is about control)
5. Lets not forget he wanted to make her "get rid of the baby"

example: Chapter 5 Twilight
" "It's open," was all he responded. He got in the driver's side. "I am perfectly capable of driving myself home!" I stood by the car, fuming. It was raining harder now, and I'd never put my hood up, so my hair was dripping down my back. He lowered the automatic window and leaned toward me across the seat. "Get in, Bella." I didn't answer. I was mentally calculating my chances of reaching the truck before he could catch me. I had to admit, they weren't good. "I'll just drag you back," he threatened, guessing my plan.  

[Glitterbean]

Twilight Scribe

Maybe I should post that argument about how Edward is abusive. He also is a criminal I can back this up with evidence from the novels, and is just a tad on the side of creepy.

The Volturi are definitely my favorite vampires. They had potential, but there's nothing really in any of the books to so firmly categorize any of the characters in such a black and white way. Right now I'm writing some Volturi-centric fanfiction, and they're turning out to be completely different then what I think Meyer wanted. For one, Aro is a sociopath, Jane is a sadistic murder with a bit of I guess you could call it this an Electra-complex, and Heidi is... well, she's UNIQUE.

That doesn't sound so different from the way Stephenie Meyer portrays them, actually. There is plenty of evidence that suggests Aro is a sociopath and Jane is a sadistic murderer. While there isn't much to support the theory that she has an Electra complex, I wouldn't say that the information in the novels rules it out.  

[Queen-of-the-Rogue]

The Angel Kitten

Edward is evil... a stalker and abusive.

1. He reads the minds of her friends and family so he always knows what she thinks about him (while I admit this is not technically abuse it does give him to power to control)
2. He watches her sleep, in her room without her permission
3. He has his sister kidnap Bella to control where she stays
4. He REMOVED the engine from her truck (again this is about control)
5. Lets not forget he wanted to make her "get rid of the baby"

example: Chapter 5 Twilight
" "It's open," was all he responded. He got in the driver's side. "I am perfectly capable of driving myself home!" I stood by the car, fuming. It was raining harder now, and I'd never put my hood up, so my hair was dripping down my back. He lowered the automatic window and leaned toward me across the seat. "Get in, Bella." I didn't answer. I was mentally calculating my chances of reaching the truck before he could catch me. I had to admit, they weren't good. "I'll just drag you back," he threatened, guessing my plan.

I can see where you're coming from on this. I like the examples you picked they're very good examples. I'd love to see some more examples if you ever feel like it. After all you could make some very good arguments on this subject.  

[Glitterbean]

The Angel Kitten

Edward is evil... a stalker and abusive.

1. He reads the minds of her friends and family so he always knows what she thinks about him (while I admit this is not technically abuse it does give him to power to control)
2. He watches her sleep, in her room without her permission
3. He has his sister kidnap Bella to control where she stays
4. He REMOVED the engine from her truck (again this is about control)
5. Lets not forget he wanted to make her "get rid of the baby"

example: Chapter 5 Twilight
" "It's open," was all he responded. He got in the driver's side. "I am perfectly capable of driving myself home!" I stood by the car, fuming. It was raining harder now, and I'd never put my hood up, so my hair was dripping down my back. He lowered the automatic window and leaned toward me across the seat. "Get in, Bella." I didn't answer. I was mentally calculating my chances of reaching the truck before he could catch me. I had to admit, they weren't good. "I'll just drag you back," he threatened, guessing my plan.

While this behavior is certainly controlling, creepy, and stalkerish, I still don't think it makes him evil. He isn't trying to hurt anyone, and he doesn't enjoy seeing people suffer like certain other characters. Is he perfect? Of course not. Does he tend to be controlling and obsessive? Absolutely. But is he evil? I think that's a bit drastic. I'm sure I'll be attacked for saying this, but I think it's true.  

[Glitterbean]

Queen-of-the-Rogue

The Angel Kitten

Edward is evil... a stalker and abusive.

1. He reads the minds of her friends and family so he always knows what she thinks about him (while I admit this is not technically abuse it does give him to power to control)
2. He watches her sleep, in her room without her permission
3. He has his sister kidnap Bella to control where she stays
4. He REMOVED the engine from her truck (again this is about control)
5. Lets not forget he wanted to make her "get rid of the baby"

example: Chapter 5 Twilight
" "It's open," was all he responded. He got in the driver's side. "I am perfectly capable of driving myself home!" I stood by the car, fuming. It was raining harder now, and I'd never put my hood up, so my hair was dripping down my back. He lowered the automatic window and leaned toward me across the seat. "Get in, Bella." I didn't answer. I was mentally calculating my chances of reaching the truck before he could catch me. I had to admit, they weren't good. "I'll just drag you back," he threatened, guessing my plan.

I can see where you're coming from on this. I like the examples you picked they're very good examples. I'd love to see some more examples if you ever feel like it. After all you could make some very good arguments on this subject.

There are a ton more examples in Midnight Sun, if you're interested.  

[Queen-of-the-Rogue]

Glitterbean

Queen-of-the-Rogue

The Angel Kitten

Edward is evil... a stalker and abusive.

1. He reads the minds of her friends and family so he always knows what she thinks about him (while I admit this is not technically abuse it does give him to power to control)
2. He watches her sleep, in her room without her permission
3. He has his sister kidnap Bella to control where she stays
4. He REMOVED the engine from her truck (again this is about control)
5. Lets not forget he wanted to make her "get rid of the baby"

example: Chapter 5 Twilight
" "It's open," was all he responded. He got in the driver's side. "I am perfectly capable of driving myself home!" I stood by the car, fuming. It was raining harder now, and I'd never put my hood up, so my hair was dripping down my back. He lowered the automatic window and leaned toward me across the seat. "Get in, Bella." I didn't answer. I was mentally calculating my chances of reaching the truck before he could catch me. I had to admit, they weren't good. "I'll just drag you back," he threatened, guessing my plan.

I can see where you're coming from on this. I like the examples you picked they're very good examples. I'd love to see some more examples if you ever feel like it. After all you could make some very good arguments on this subject.

There are a ton more examples in Midnight Sun, if you're interested.

There probably are but I'm lazy. I have no interest in reading what she has of Midnight Sun up.  

[Twilight Scribe]

And to KimCL, thank you so much for using the standard Twilight hardcore fan response of 'Edward is a vampire'. But I will give you some points for having made it not sound like someone smashed their face into their keyboard. Your response I could read and understand. Borrowed from Twilight Sucks. There's also this.

Quote:

Anti: “Edward is abusive”

Support for this argument includes the following (and this is just a quick list):

1. Edward is controlling and domineering
2. Edward has an unequal share of authority over the relationship
3. Edward threatens suicide
4. Edward manipulates Bella into marriage
5. Edward actively attempts to prevent Bella from seeing her friend (removes engine, has her kidnapped)
6. Edward encourages Bella’s isolation from others

Now, I’ve found that the most common argument in rebuttal for “Edward is abusive” is “But he only does it because he loves her” or “He’s trying to protect her” or “His intentions are good” or “He recognizes that he makes mistakes/overreacts”.

I’m going to address these arguments in two parts. First, in terms of semantics; that is, the actual actions and consequences in the series, and second I’ll deal with the abstraction of intentions versus actions.

1. What is abuse?

Obviously Edward is not abusive physically to Bella, but that doesn’t mean that he’s not still abusive. That is, he is emotionally and mentally abusive. And the fact that he’s a vampire has nothing to do with it; Meyer is portraying a relationship between two people, and given the fact that Edward has a very human psyche (i.e. he experiences human emotions (anger, ‘love’, worry), human desires (sex), and was once in fact human) it is not a reasonable argument to simply excuse his bad behavior by simply arguing, “he’s a vampire, so it doesn’t count.”

So: abuse. What is it?

Wikipedia says:
Quote:
An abusive relationship is an interpersonal relationship characterized by the use or threat of physical or psychological abuse. Abusive relationships are often characterized by jealousy, emotional withholding, lack of intimacy, infidelity, sexual coercion, verbal abuse, broken promises, physical violence, control games and power plays.

Let’s break this definition down in terms of Edward and Bella.

Jealousy – If anything, Edward’s defining characteristic is in fact his jealousy. It is his jealousy (more than anything else) that instigates his abusive acts. He admits after the engine episode that the main reason for not wanting Bella to see Jacob was in fact his prejudice and jealousy, and that’s hardly the only instance of his jealousy.

Emotional withholding – The fact that Edward and Bella are supposed to share this incredible, transcendent relationship is undermined by the fact that rather than discuss his fears and uncertainties, Edward chooses to leave Bella at the beginning of New Moon. While it’s not a crime to end a relationship, the fact that Edward chose to do so in such a cruel and unusual manner instead of explaining his feelings and emotions on the subject is pretty abusive.

Lack of intimacy – The intimacy issue is a trickier when it comes to Edward and Bella. First, in terms of physical intimacy: the fact that Edward controls every single chaste little kiss AND withholds sex is incredibly controlling. That he does so supposedly to protect her is negated by the fact that he’s more than willing to sex her up once they’re married, even though she’s still a puny, fragile human (and she does get hurt). Their lack of emotional intimacy (again, with the above point about emotional withholding) is just as damaging (as referenced by Bella’s zombiefied state in New Moon.

Sexual coercion – Again, Edward controls every aspect of their sexual lives, against Bella’s will and in fact he demeans and treats her like a child when she attempts to sex him.

Broken promises – at the end of Twilight, Edward promises to stay with Bella no matter what. Yet at the beginning of New Moon, he massively overreacts to the supposed threat of danger and decides to break that promise, rendering Bella suicidal. Maybe this isn’t traditionally abusive, but it’s unnecessarily damaging.

Control games and power plays – All the above points serve the idea that Edward’s prevailing character (served by his jealousy) is controlling. And I don’t care how ‘powerful’ and ‘omniscient’ and ‘old and wise’ Edward is, when you’re in a romantic relationship with someone one partner cannot be completely dominating and the other submissive (unless it’s a BDSM relationship, but that’s another subject entirely). It simply isn’t healthy, particularly when it’s supposed to be this ‘great love of all the ages’ and representative of an equal partnership.

2. Intentions

Let me just say this once to make it clear: intentions (good or bad) do not matter. It’s an instance of the classic phrase acta non verba, or “actions, not words.” It doesn’t matter if I tell you “I love you so much!” if I immediately follow that statement by trying to kill you. It doesn’t matter if I honestly DO love you and I STILL try to kill you; the action of attempted homicide still stands (and I’ll be charged with that) regardless of how I feel about it. If I kill someone and then say “I made a mistake” or “I loved him/her”, the fact that I feel bad about it in retrospect does not change the irreversible fact that I did, in fact, kill someone.

So if Edward removes the engine from Bella’s truck and then replaces it later, the fact that he replaces it later is irrelevant to the issue at hand; the fact that he performed the abusive act in the first place. I don’t care if he felt bad about it or changed his mind; he still performed the act to begin with.

If Edward only does anything “in order to protect Bella”, it’s again an instance of the irrelevance of intentions. Simply put, he doesn’t have the right to upend another person’s life or to attempt to control what that person does, even if he cares about them. It is not my roommate’s place to lock me in our room to prevent me from going out and getting trashed, even if she thinks she’s doing it to “protect me” or “because she cares about me.” Likewise, it isn’t Edward’s right to decide who Bella sees, when she sees him, where she sees him, and for how long. Just because he decided NOT to kidnap Bella for the weekend a second time doesn’t make the fact that he kidnapped her for a weekend for the first time moot.

Basically, intentions don’t matter. Actions matter. Even if Edward changes his mind or feels bad about it, that doesn’t erase the fact that he performed the act in the first place. If he feels bad about it, it doesn’t mean that his character isn’t an abusive one; you don’t judge a character based on the person he is by the end of the novel (or series); rather, you judge them (and form an understanding of them) by incorporating EVERYTHING you learn about them throughout the series. So while Edward DOES change and DOES make different decisions, his good decisions don’t negate the bad ones. He performs an abusive act = he is abusive, even if he feels bad about it. Capisce?