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someone please explain in detail paganism from your own view

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Oakyia

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:42 pm
and feel free to talk about, wiccan too from your point of view. i want too know, as much as i can.  
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:18 pm
Paganism is any non-Abrahamic religion.
Wicca is this  

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:29 am
Paganism: An umbrella term that describes non-Abrahamic faiths. Very broad, not very helpful as a descriptive term.

Wicca:

An Orthopraxic, Oathbound, Initiatory, Mystery-based, Experiential, Coven-based, Fertility-focused, Dithesitic Witch-cult whose members are all Clergy within a Lineaged Tradition.

A mouthful, if there every was one! Let's break it down farther into individual components.

Orthopraxic:
There are two kinds of religion.

One is orthodoxic - meaning 'correct belief'. If you believe the right things, you qualify as a member of that faith.

The second is orthopraxic - literally, this is 'right practice'. If you know the right way to do things within that faith, and you do them, you're a member of that faith.

Wicca is Orthopraxic. What allows a person to qualify as Wiccan is knowing the correct practices: how to use the tools, hw to properly cast and consecrate a circle, how to invoke Deity, etc. If you change any of this orthopraxy far enough from its' core, then it ceases to be Wicca.

Only initiated Wiccans will know this proper practice, because....

Oathbound:
...Wicca is oathbound.

What this means is every person who has become a Wiccan, in the proper way, has sworn an oath never to reveal the orthopraxy of Wicca unless that other person is 'a proper person, properly prepared.' This means, in essence, that a coven will only teach the orthopraxy to those who have been 'properly prepared', ie. have become an initiate, and have sworn the very same oath.

This oath is fearsome. It is not undertaken lightly, and those who break it are cast out and reviled, for good reason. Because of this, even people who choose to leave Wicca, are still expected to uphold this oath.

The oath also means you may not publish Wiccan practices in books, or other media, where it would be viewed by non-initiates.
No book at the bookstore, no website online, has ever had a single scrap of actual Wiccan material.

What you generally see are generic pagan teachings, with a vague Wiccan flavour - we call it 'outer court'. Outer-court teachings vary from coven to coven, but they're the basic info taught to a Seeker as a foundation to learn Wicca on after initiation. It isn't and shouldn't be considered Wicca in and of itself - but it is still useful.

Why do people publish things in the name of Wicca, when it isn't? Simple: money. People want Wicca, so they give them what they want. 9 times out of 10 those people are in no position to realize they've been misinformed or misled.

Initiation, Mystery-based, and Experiential:
We'll tackle these three together.

Initiation is VERY important in Wicca. Without this event - without experiencing this ritual - you'll never fully understand Wicca, even if you were to somehow gain access to Wiccan material without being an initiate. Without initiation, you have no access to the Mysteries.

Mystery-based paths have existed for thousands of years. A Mystery is just an experience that changes your perception and understanding of events and objects and energies - and there are plenty out there that are easily available to everyone. A Mystery is always the same event: what varies is how an individual experiences them. Even experiencing a sunset will be a different Mystery every time, depending on environmental conditions, season, location, and the person themselves.

Some Mysteries, however, are shaped and built around specific events, to build a consistent framework for the experience - historically, the Eleunesian Mysteries come to mind. The Wiccan Mysteries are the same way. The ritual, done properly, by people qualified to perform it, builds this framework. Each initiate will have a slightly different experience - but the Mysteries themselves are the same, inside that framework. Obviously, if you change the framework, you will access Mysteries, but they will not be the Wiccan Mysteries.

Without experiecing the Wiccan Mysteries properly, you will always lack the proper context to understand the orthopraxy of Wicca. It's why you can't be a Wiccan alone, you can't teach yourself, and you can't learn it from a book or online. Without that initiatory experience of the proper Mysteries, you're lacking a key that will allow you to unlock the meaning and understanding of the rituals practiced by Wiccans.

Initiation is always practiced cross-gender. A woman is initiated by a man, and a man by a woman. If you run across someone who says they were initiated by someone of the same sex as them, it was not a valid Wiccan initiation.

Coven-based:
One can't be a Wiccan alone. Aside from the fact that one can't self-initiate...

The rites of Wicca, recorded in the Book of Shadows each coven keeps a hand-copied version of, basically define what Wicca is. These rites were never meant to be practiced alone. They're based on having a full coven of initiates to perform properly.

Solitary Wiccans really don't exist. You can have initiated Wiccans who are unable to practice with their covens: they moved, they're away, they got sick, etc. But what they do on their own is neo-pagan witchcraft, heavily flavoured by Wicca, performed by a Wiccan - it's not proper Wiccan practice.

And finding an actual, lineaged coven (we'll talk about lineage later) can be a lot of work - travel, time, money, energy. And those sacrifices to attend a group are expected. It's considered normal. People who complain about not finding a coven in their area so they can learn properly, are typically looked at with some disdain, especially by those Wiccans who travel considerable lengths to their own covens.

Fertility-focused:

Wicca is a fertility cult. It's not a Nature cult, or an 'earth-based' path. We don't worship Nature. We honour fertility! Fertility is one specific aspect of Nature; so while we may see and appreciate fertility reflected in the cycles of Nature.

And naturally, fertility means sex. It's very difficult to have one without the other. Wicca does contain sexual context, and activity, within its' rites. Many people assume that means actual intercourse, but there are many levels of sexual activity - and indeed, a non-Wiccan would probably miss some of the sexual nature that Wiccan ritual contains (even in an outer-court situation), because it can be incredibly subtle, or easily overlooked if you're lacking the contextual knowledge initiates have.

Wicca is not a good faith for anyone who has issues being openly sexual with other people. Wicca's sexual basis is also why Wicca does not initiate minors - and in fact refuses to even start teaching the basics to a person until they are 18. This is not open to interpretation or debate: it is a part of the laws of the Wica, which are known as the Ardanes.

Ditheistic:

Wiccans believe in a pair of deities, a God and a Goddess. Wicca is, contrary to many depictions, a hard polytheistic religion. Wiccans believe that their gods are distinct and individual - not facets or aspects of an overarching, singular God or Goddess. Their actual names are oathbound. They are not archetypes, though - they are a specific God and Goddess. The terms 'Lord' and 'Lady' are simply honorifics - used to refer to the Gods of the Wica around non-initiates without breaking ones' oaths, not to indicate that they are soft-polytheistic in Nature.

The Wiccan gods do not mind if a Wiccan has existing relationships with deities from pantheons outside the faith. But one cannot use whatever pantheon they like in the place of the Lord and Lady - it alters the orthopraxy too much. So things like "Celtic Wicca", or "Norse Wicca", or "Egyptian Wicca"...just aren't Wicca at all.

Witch-cult:

All Wiccans are also witches. Nothing too scary in that. 'Cult' simply means religion, in this instance.

Clergy:

All Wiccans are initiated priesthood of the Lord and Lady. There is no exception to this. Once you are an initiate, you are their priest or priestess. It is a HUGE, life-long commitment, and an event that completely changes you. Becoming an initiate doesn't make you part of the 'cool kids', or some sort of clique. It's not a mark of status, or some kind of diploma - being a Wiccan initiate is a full-time job. It turns your life upside for a while. It creates a lot of extra work and responsibilities for you - The Gods will have their own needs, but so will the people around you. You get those late night calls from coveners whose lives are coming apart and need advise, or help, or a listening ear. You're there when someone dies, and people need help. You're there to teach new Seekers, and guide them into the path.

Frankly, a teenager isn't ready for this level of committment or change. Frequently folks in their twenties aren't either. You need to have a stable life, under your own authority, and being responsible for your own self. This is on all levels - mental, physical, and emotional. The changes initiation brings will rock the foundation of a person's life - and if that life is already in change, or flux, then it's disastrous.

Finally...

Lineaged Tradition

Wicca was founded by a man by the name of Gerald Gardner, somewhere between the late 1930's and the mid 1940's. Gardner was an initiate of a coven in an older, extant witch-cult - the New Forest Coven. He wished to preserve aspects of this witch-cult, and mixed in parts and practices from other faiths as he saw fit. and created what we call Wicca. Gardner himself was the first to use the word 'Wicca', although there are similar words from older languages.

Thus was born the Gardnerian Tradition of Wicca - the very first tradition of Wicca, and one that is still going strong today.

Other traditions were born out of this first one, each defined by its' own particular quirks or flavour, and yet also defined by the fact that they retained the orthopraxy of the Wiccan faith in their practice, and that their initiatory lineage links them back to Gardner.

That being said, there aren't as many traditions in existence as there claims to be. Legitimate forms of Wicca are: Gardnerian, Alexandrian, Mohsian, Central Valley, Silver Crescent, Kingstone, Daoine Coire, Assembly of Wicca, and Majestic. Some Blue Star and Georgian covens may have lineage as well, but it depends on the priesthood and elders of each individual lines of initiates. This group of traditions is collectively known as British Traditional Wicca, and they are the only legitimately Wiccan traditions. Traditions outside this grouping may not maintain the full orthopraxy of Wicca.

Initiatory Lineage is very important. It is how Wiccans are able to determine if someone is legitimately a Wiccan, or not. Remember back when I was talking about cross-gendered initiation (man to woman, woman to man)? If a person was initiated by the same sex, or they cannot trace their lineage to Gardner-

Example: Lord Y was initiated by Lady X. Lady X was initated by Lord V. Lord V was initiated by Lady T. Lady T was initiated by Gerald Gardner

- then a person cannot legitimately claim to be Wiccan, and any person they initiate likewise cannot claim to be Wiccan. It's really that simple. It's not a blood lineage, either - you do not have to be related to Gardner by blood, and the idea of families passing on Wiccan initiation amongst its' members violates the Ardanes, the laws of Wicca.

Some people complain, as I mentioned before, that it's difficult to find lineaged groups - that they have no choice but to learn from books or online or people who aren't initiates. It's true. It can be a real search - for the simple reason that Wicca is not for everyone. It isn't interested in numbers, or reaching everyone; there are built-in quality controls.

Wicca's membership are specifically called by the Gods of Wicca to be priesthood - a role not every person interested in Wicca is qualified for. Those who are legitimately called end up finding a coven and becoming initiates, no matter the cost or effort. There are plenty of other paths available under the pagan umbrella that will better suit the people who don't. Unfortuntely Wicca is popular, and better known than other pagan religions, and people become fixated on it and nothing else...which leads to many of the problems I've already mentioned.  
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:24 pm
I have a pretty strong dislike of using the term Paganism (in proper case) to simply mean what the other two have stated, because it is a useless definition by and large. I'm a big fan of Michael York's work "Paganism as a World Religion" which gets much more specific and avoids doing silly things like including Baha'i or Unitarian Universalism under the designation. That usage isn't technically invalid, I just find it pretty useless as it's a definition of negation (I also find the term atheism pretty useless for the same reason, but that's neither here nor there). I'm not going to go into the nuances of the various ways I define Paganism and Neopaganism; I just think you might want to take a look at York's book. Keep in mind that it's an academic work and not exactly a simpleton's read, though.

I won't get started on Wicca, but it suffices to say I find even Wikipedia to be significantly more authoritative on the matter than Gaia Online. BTW is described decently by some here, but BTW hardly describes all the faces of Wicca. I don't really have any singular definition of Wicca or Paganism; different definitions suit different purposes depending on who you're communicating with. Technical definitions are in the end not all that useful when it comes to actually living and practicing these things. It can be an interesting intellectual exercise to fuss about it, but in the end, it really is mostly an exercise and may or may not have any real-world meaning. For instance, even *if* we grant that BTW is "the one and only true Wicca" it has minimal real-world meaning to a great many people, from the Wiccans who fought the VA to the mass media who at times is barely able to distinguish Wicca from Satanism. xd  

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:55 pm
Starlock
I won't get started on Wicca, but it suffices to say I find even Wikipedia to be significantly more authoritative on the matter than Gaia Online.

Probably because Wikipedia agrees with your bullshit opinion whereas people on Gaia Online do not.
Please explain for the rest of the thread why Wikipedia strikes you as a valid source on Wicca, but two initiated Wiccan priestesses are not?
Quote:
BTW is described decently by some here, but BTW hardly describes all the faces of Wicca.

I'd say we do a very fine job here.
All the faces of Wicca? Please, tell me who created all of these faces that Wicca supposedly has.
I decide here and now that one of the faces of Wicca involves eating puppies and beating infants with spiked leather belts while blaring Slipknot. And by your reasoning, not a one here can tell me that's not Wicca.

So how are my fellow puppy-eaters and infant beaters tonight?
Quote:
For instance, even *if* we grant that BTW is "the one and only true Wicca" it has minimal real-world meaning to a great many people, from the Wiccans who fought the VA to the mass media who at times is barely able to distinguish Wicca from Satanism. xd

You know, you're totally right. Setting things straight and clarifying things will TOTALLY NOT help dispel any misinformation. I mean, after all, we all know that the Jews are money-grubbers and eat babies. And all Muslims are terrorists. And that a girl can't get pregnant if she doesn't orgasm. Or even that girls are simply inferior to men and that's why all we can do is stay home and cook and have babies (so long as we orgasm, of course). That's why we still teach people these theories because setting things straight just simply hasn't worked in the past.

Clarification and spreading correct information means a ******** to people who actually want some intellectual honesty and facts to their faith.

You know, I find it terribly (almost painfully) ironic that you dislike Paganism because it is so broad that it's meaningless, but you support the stance of making Wicca so broad and such a catch-all that it is meaningless.  
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