Any good first guns for hunting?

[inverse-actuality]

I'm 14 and want to start hunting. I live in PA so preferably something that can take down a bear just in case. It cannot be semi or full auto. I have no experience and I'm not going to pretend to, but I'm guessing either a .308 bolt action rifle or a 12 gauge pump action shotgun would be good.  

[Man of the Demoneye]

You're pretty much on, IMHO. Make sure you check your local regs just in case because some areas don't allow rifles and are shotgun only. The shotgun is more versatile than the .308 because you can take down deer, squirrels, birds and turkey without modifying the gun at all. (okay, choke tubes are nice) Some can be switched to a rifled barrel for saboted slugs if you are really looking for greater accuracy though.

If you only want to hunt deer or other large game and live in a rifle friendly area, I would go with the rifle then. The .308 is probably the best caliber for that size range because it is a military caliber. You should be able to get cheaper ammo for practice and there is a decent amount of ballistic data on that round.



Also in B4 870 vs. 500  

[inverse-actuality]

Man of the Demoneye

You're pretty much on, IMHO. Make sure you check your local regs just in case because some areas don't allow rifles and are shotgun only. The shotgun is more versatile than the .308 because you can take down deer, squirrels, birds and turkey without modifying the gun at all. (okay, choke tubes are nice) Some can be switched to a rifled barrel for saboted slugs if you are really looking for greater accuracy though.

If you only want to hunt deer or other large game and live in a rifle friendly area, I would go with the rifle then. The .308 is probably the best caliber for that size range because it is a military caliber. You should be able to get cheaper ammo for practice and there is a decent amount of ballistic data on that round.



Also in B4 870 vs. 500

That's one of the reasons I was leaning towards a Remington 870 over a .308 bolt action. That and I can't find a cheap .308
do you know any specific guns that are decent but cheap?  

[Floyd]

Man of the Demoneye

Also in B4 870 vs. 500

Here's the first 'round from the Remington camp.

I own a Remington 870 Express pump and love it. I have the standard barrel and a rifled deer slug barrel for it. It's nice to be able to swap the barrels and have two distinctive kinds of hunting weapon.

Deer slug can be illegal for hunting large animals, depending on the state you live in. It would bring down black bear if I needed to.

The great thing is you can buy the 870 darn near anywhere, even in CA.

Good luck with whatever you wind up buying!  

[inverse-actuality]

Floyd

Man of the Demoneye

Also in B4 870 vs. 500

Here's the first 'round from the Remington camp.

I own a Remington 870 Express pump and love it. I have the standard barrel and a rifled deer slug barrel for it. It's nice to be able to swap the barrels and have two distinctive kinds of hunting weapon.

Deer slug can be illegal for hunting large animals, depending on the state you live in. It would bring down black bear if I needed to.

The great thing is you can buy the 870 darn near anywhere, even in CA.

Good luck with whatever you wind up buying!

Can buckshot in an 870 easily take down a bear, or should I carry slugs with me just in case? "Better safe than sorry" is something I'm more likely to follow in the case of a bear getting dangerously close to me than laws if I have to. Also, do grizzlies live in eastern Pennsylvania and what would I need to take them down?  

[Man of the Demoneye]

inverse-actuality

Man of the Demoneye

You're pretty much on, IMHO. Make sure you check your local regs just in case because some areas don't allow rifles and are shotgun only. The shotgun is more versatile than the .308 because you can take down deer, squirrels, birds and turkey without modifying the gun at all. (okay, choke tubes are nice) Some can be switched to a rifled barrel for saboted slugs if you are really looking for greater accuracy though.

If you only want to hunt deer or other large game and live in a rifle friendly area, I would go with the rifle then. The .308 is probably the best caliber for that size range because it is a military caliber. You should be able to get cheaper ammo for practice and there is a decent amount of ballistic data on that round.



Also in B4 870 vs. 500

That's one of the reasons I was leaning towards a Remington 870 over a .308 bolt action. That and I can't find a cheap .308
do you know any specific guns that are decent but cheap?

Depends on what "cheap" means to you. I've seen racks of old guns going for +/- $100, plus with the economy, people are selling off what they don't need for cash. If you do look at used guns, make sure you take a little LED flashlight to look down the barrel. Some might have craters or scratches inside and that won't help you at all. Just look around a few gunshops or sport shops and see what they have. Going used can get you a better gun that was out of your price range, but can also get you a complete POS jam-o-matic. Caveat emptor.

If you are looking at new, probably the most common are the Rem. 870 and the Mossberg 500. As far as I can tell, the Mossberg is cheaper, but the 870 seems like better quality. both have plenty of aftermarket accessories to mount scopes, mag extensions, stocks, etc. I'd say a both will run about $300 for the basic model. My personal opinion, go with the 870 because it doesn't feel like the forend is going to fall off, feels more solid and just looks better.

As far as stocks are concerned, yes, performance wise synthetic is better, but I still like how wood looks.


Edit: How could we have forgotten the almighty Mosin rifle?  

[inverse-actuality]

Man of the Demoneye

inverse-actuality

Man of the Demoneye

You're pretty much on, IMHO. Make sure you check your local regs just in case because some areas don't allow rifles and are shotgun only. The shotgun is more versatile than the .308 because you can take down deer, squirrels, birds and turkey without modifying the gun at all. (okay, choke tubes are nice) Some can be switched to a rifled barrel for saboted slugs if you are really looking for greater accuracy though.

If you only want to hunt deer or other large game and live in a rifle friendly area, I would go with the rifle then. The .308 is probably the best caliber for that size range because it is a military caliber. You should be able to get cheaper ammo for practice and there is a decent amount of ballistic data on that round.



Also in B4 870 vs. 500

That's one of the reasons I was leaning towards a Remington 870 over a .308 bolt action. That and I can't find a cheap .308
do you know any specific guns that are decent but cheap?

Depends on what "cheap" means to you. I've seen racks of old guns going for +/- $100, plus with the economy, people are selling off what they don't need for cash. If you do look at used guns, make sure you take a little LED flashlight to look down the barrel. Some might have craters or scratches inside and that won't help you at all. Just look around a few gunshops or sport shops and see what they have. Going used can get you a better gun that was out of your price range, but can also get you a complete POS jam-o-matic. Caveat emptor.

If you are looking at new, probably the most common are the Rem. 870 and the Mossberg 500. As far as I can tell, the Mossberg is cheaper, but the 870 seems like better quality. both have plenty of aftermarket accessories to mount scopes, mag extensions, stocks, etc. I'd say a both will run about $300 for the basic model. My personal opinion, go with the 870 because it doesn't feel like the forend is going to fall off, feels more solid and just looks better.

As far as stocks are concerned, yes, performance wise synthetic is better, but I still like how wood looks.


Edit: How could we have forgotten the almighty Mosin rifle?

Cheap means whatever my dad can most likely afford during Christmas time. I think I'll go with an 870 A-Tacs Camo if possible. I'm going to go for new because firearms are dangerous in general and a used one is more likely to get me injured. I don't want to end up buying a poorly treated piece of crap that'll get me hurt.
Also, it says "MODEL 870™ EXPRESS® TACTICAL A-TACS CAMO" so does that mean it'll only work with the express ammo? I'm assuming it wouldn't work very well with magnum?  

[Valkyrie Hatter]

How much are you willing to spend on a rifle or shotgun?

If you want dirt cheap go to a gun emporium and pick out a Mosin Nagant or a Mauser 98. I've found 4 Mauser rifles priced between $75-$99 in just one shop.

7.62 Russian ammunition is dirt cheap. $.10 a round.

8mm is about as expensive as common American ammunition. $18-$36 a box of 20.

Since both cartridges in both rifles are more powerful than a .308 it's more than capable in killing a bear. Though I can't be so sure since the American manufacture of 8mm skimps out on a few grains of powder.  

[Man of the Demoneye]

inverse-actuality

Man of the Demoneye

inverse-actuality

Man of the Demoneye

You're pretty much on, IMHO. Make sure you check your local regs just in case because some areas don't allow rifles and are shotgun only. The shotgun is more versatile than the .308 because you can take down deer, squirrels, birds and turkey without modifying the gun at all. (okay, choke tubes are nice) Some can be switched to a rifled barrel for saboted slugs if you are really looking for greater accuracy though.

If you only want to hunt deer or other large game and live in a rifle friendly area, I would go with the rifle then. The .308 is probably the best caliber for that size range because it is a military caliber. You should be able to get cheaper ammo for practice and there is a decent amount of ballistic data on that round.



Also in B4 870 vs. 500

That's one of the reasons I was leaning towards a Remington 870 over a .308 bolt action. That and I can't find a cheap .308
do you know any specific guns that are decent but cheap?

Depends on what "cheap" means to you. I've seen racks of old guns going for +/- $100, plus with the economy, people are selling off what they don't need for cash. If you do look at used guns, make sure you take a little LED flashlight to look down the barrel. Some might have craters or scratches inside and that won't help you at all. Just look around a few gunshops or sport shops and see what they have. Going used can get you a better gun that was out of your price range, but can also get you a complete POS jam-o-matic. Caveat emptor.

If you are looking at new, probably the most common are the Rem. 870 and the Mossberg 500. As far as I can tell, the Mossberg is cheaper, but the 870 seems like better quality. both have plenty of aftermarket accessories to mount scopes, mag extensions, stocks, etc. I'd say a both will run about $300 for the basic model. My personal opinion, go with the 870 because it doesn't feel like the forend is going to fall off, feels more solid and just looks better.

As far as stocks are concerned, yes, performance wise synthetic is better, but I still like how wood looks.


Edit: How could we have forgotten the almighty Mosin rifle?

Cheap means whatever my dad can most likely afford during Christmas time. I think I'll go with an 870 A-Tacs Camo if possible. I'm going to go for new because firearms are dangerous in general and a used one is more likely to get me injured. I don't want to end up buying a poorly treated piece of crap that'll get me hurt.
Also, it says "MODEL 870™ EXPRESS® TACTICAL A-TACS CAMO" so does that mean it'll only work with the express ammo? I'm assuming it wouldn't work very well with magnum?

"Express" just means the grade of the gun according to the manufacturer.

For guns, Express is the most basic (cheapest) with okay finishing and meh looking wood or synthetic stock. The next step up is "Wingmaster" which has better finishing and better wood. Works a little smoother, fits a little tighter.

Just the same, Express, let's say buckshot is the base grade. It works and that's about it. Then there are special loads with lower recoil and / or better patterning. You probably won't find "Express" on a box of Winchester or Federal shells because they don't use that exact grade system. The only thing you really have to watch out for with ammo is shell length. a 2 3/4" gun won't chamber a 3" shell, but a 3" gun will use both. Then you have 3 1/2"...you get the idea. I would suggest 3" because you might want to try heavier / lighter loads.

Oh yeah, I also forgot to mention the Beneli Nova. It's what I'm using now. It's a great gun once you get past the break in period, but I'm not sure if there are slug barrels for it.  

[ArmasTermin]

Okay, time for some input from the Mossberg camp.

1. The shell elevator that lifts a shell from the tube into the action on the Remingtons is always down, so one must press up against it in order to load a shell. In the Mossberg, the elevator stays up most of the time, so one simply lifts a round to the opening and slides it on in. This means two things: The Mossberg loads faster, but the Remington will have a cleaner, smoother action. Because one doesn't need to apply extra force to move the shell elevator up.

2. The safety on the Mossberg is on the top, called a tang safety. On the Remington it's a cross-bolt safety behind the trigger. If you intend to use a pistol grip stock or pistol grip only at some time, the Remington's safety is in a much more natural place rather than having to lift your whole hand up to actuate it. But with a traditional stock the safety is right within reach and is ideal for left-handed or ambidextrous shooters.

3. Some have reported less-than-satisfactory results with Remington fit-and-finish, but in general it will have a smoother action, have a more slim and trim foregrip, and be a generally more aesthetically pleasing gun. The Mossberg has an allegedly stronger frame (I think it has a steel receiver rather than aluminum) and it has a double claw extractor for more positive shell extraction, while the Remingtons are single.

4. I own and love my Mossberg 500, and I got a super deal with it. I chose the "Mossberg 500 Field/Security Combo" which is a Mossberg 500 with wood stocks, an additional plastic pistol grip, an 18 1/2" cylinder bore barrel, and a 27" ported accu-choke barrel. All for about $330 OTD. It's good to go with a combo like this if you think you'll want to have an additional barrel later, as it's cheaper than buying one separate.

5. Both models have lots of accessories available--like all over the place. They're the two most popular shotgun models in America.

6. The slide release (which you hold down when you want to work the foregrip to cycle rounds without firing, for example to empty the gun) on the Remington is in front of the trigger guard on the left, so one must remove their firing grip to reach it. On the Mossberg it is behind and to the left, so you can just orient your index finger behind the trigger guard and actuate it. Much easier.

tl;dr
Remington is sleeker and smoother, good for pistol grip stocks.
Mossberg is stronger and loads faster, best with traditional stocks.  

[Floyd]

One last thought on deer slug guns. One of the trade offs of a rifled slug is a much shorter effective accurate range when compared to a .308 rifle.

If you plan to take your game at really close range (under 200 yards), the deer slug is a great compromise. Over 200 yards and you'll want a heavy caliber rifle.

And to answer your question, I'd never take a shot at a bear with any shot. It's far too dangerous and the odds of hitting important organs hard enough on the first shot would make it a very risky proposition.

I would also suggest the venerable .30-06. There are plenty of nice old bolt action rifles in the $300 range, and ammo is plentiful.  

[Fresnel]

ArmasTermin

The Mossberg has an allegedly stronger frame (I think it has a steel receiver rather than aluminum)

You got that part backwards. Remington uses steel, Mossberg uses aluminum. However, both are strong enough to get the job done. Aluminum is lighter, obviously, though I prefer the steel, because it's less likely to be marred by something scratching up against it.

Quote:

5. Both models have lots of accessories available--like all over the place. They're the two most popular shotgun models in America.

Keep in mind though, that they both have features preventing you extending the magazine. The 870 has dimples which prevent shells from moving into the magazine extension, but they can be ground off with thirty seconds of dremeling or five minutes of hand-filing. Mossberg makes it so you need to buy a whole new barrel to extend the mag at all.

Quote:

6. The slide release (which you hold down when you want to work the foregrip to cycle rounds without firing, for example to empty the gun) on the Remington is in front of the trigger guard on the left, so one must remove their firing grip to reach it. On the Mossberg it is behind and to the left, so you can just orient your index finger behind the trigger guard and actuate it. Much easier.

I feel it should be noted here that, while the Remington 887 hasn't been mentioned yet, it trumps both of these by putting the slide release button on the leading edge of the trigger guard. It's also a very soft-shooting gun, but it doesn't have nearly the customization potential of the 870 or the 500/590.

Also to be noted, Mossbergs are less expensive, and can hold an extra +1 round on the elevator, extending your magazine capacity by one. Also, if you want a sidesaddle, sporting model Remingtons have an extended pump handle which, while offering better grip to those with shorter arms, also overlaps the receiver, limiting a sidesaddle to 4 rounds. All told though, I've got a 1970's Remington 870P Wingmaster, and it's a hell of a gun. I just wish that folding stock were a bit more gentle.

Also overlooked is the Winchester 1300. I hear it's a superb shotgun with a decent customization selection in its own right, but I've never fired one myself.

And finally, yes, a 12-gauge slug is the round of choice for defense in bear country. It is incredibly effective, and I would trust my life to a gun full of slugs against anything that didn't have armor, and some things that do.

Alternatively,
 

[Recon_Ninja_985]

where the hell do you find 40 dollar mosins?  

[Fresnel]

Recon_Ninja_985

where the hell do you find 40 dollar mosins?

I'd imagine it's an old ad. This one, however, is only a year or so old. I screencap'd it myself:

 

[Recon_Ninja_985]

Fresnel

Recon_Ninja_985

where the hell do you find 40 dollar mosins?

I'd imagine it's an old ad. This one, however, is only a year or so old. I screencap'd it myself:

if that was still for sale I would sell my AR now and buy that crate...I mean it