Celtic Recon :: Anyone well-versed?

[Midnight Magpie]

Hello all. I'm new here in the group. You can call me Kit. *wavels*

I've been studying paganism in many forms since 2004 (after my accidental stumbling upon published Wicca material when I was 11 or so. Longlonglong time ago.), starting with Wicca classes. Each informational level was 3 months long, once a week for two hours. I completed two levels before I realized that Wicca was not for me, and I had no intention to pursue it further. It was about then that I adopted the "eclectic pagan" title that I've used for the last six or seven years. The last year or so, I've been trying to find a tradition that speaks to me, since I've grown beyond the culture and practice theft of eclecticism (no offense to the eclectics).

That's where Celtic Recon comes in. I've been primarily pulling my information from Paganachd.com, which was suggested to me as a reputable source by a dozen or so people from PaganSpace.net. I've been spending my time learning instead of practicing, wanting a full grasp on this culture and faith before I drop myself in head first.

My questions are: how familiar are you with Celtic Recon? Do you know anyone involved? What are your opinions?

Friendly questions, of course. Just looking for thoughts. =]  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Trouble with people on Paganspace telling you something is a reputable source is that nearly everyone on Paganspace is a twit or a fluff. wink

That site is essentially the only source I know of. Celtic cultures are closed, and also quite distinct. I suggest starting with studying Scots gaelic culture as much as one can from the outside, language and history and folklore. It will behoove you better to mention scots gaelic paganism specifically when asking around rather than Celtic recon generally... They're all quite different as I understand it (and I imagine you know) and those who know will be more likely to respond favorably if you're specific, I think.  

[Esiris]

Sanguina Cruenta

Celtic cultures are closed, and also quite distinct.

Could you explain this a little more?  

[Midnight Magpie]

Sanguina Cruenta

Trouble with people on Paganspace telling you something is a reputable source is that nearly everyone on Paganspace is a twit or a fluff. wink

And drive me batty enough to take the not-so-infrequent hiatus, but hell if I can find an online community with anyone legitimately reputable bouncing along the forums. PS was all I had to draw on with actual people inside of it. If you've got any suggestions or communities that you wouldn't mind sharing, believe me, I'd be grateful. Lol

Sanguina Cruenta

That site is essentially the only source I know of. Celtic cultures are closed, and also quite distinct. I suggest starting with studying Scots gaelic culture as much as one can from the outside, language and history and folklore. It will behoove you better to mention scots gaelic paganism specifically when asking around rather than Celtic recon generally... They're all quite different as I understand it (and I imagine you know) and those who know will be more likely to respond favorably if you're specific, I think.

Celtic Recon, specifically of Scottish origin (which I didn't include because I was mostly just gathering thoughts on the movement for now), feels a bit more specific than Scots-Gaelic paganism. Staying "I'm looking for information on Scots-Gaelic paganism" has only gotten books about "Celtic Wicca" and soft-and-fluffy "Celtic paganism" that hasn't got a single handhold in anything that wasn't mixed and melded with new age spirituality. I've had INCREDIBLY bad luck using that phrasing, and anything that meshes "celtic" with the very broad term "paganism."

Celtic Recon is much more specific, so long as the specific branch of Celtic Recon is mentioned along with the request. It's gotten me to the handful of decent information I've found, with very little weeding through that which isn't remotely relevant to me.

Celtic cultures ARE incredibly closed off, though the CR movement seems eager to educate (if you can FIND one of them. @_@) those who are serious about studying.

Again, if you can find someone who practices. =P

3am and my vocabulary decides to take a nose dive as soon as I need to make a post. Thank you, vocabulary.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Esiris

Sanguina Cruenta

Celtic cultures are closed, and also quite distinct.

Could you explain this a little more?

Which, the closed or the distinct?  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Steampunk Lullaby

Celtic Recon, specifically of Scottish origin (which I didn't include because I was mostly just gathering thoughts on the movement for now), feels a bit more specific than Scots-Gaelic paganism. Staying "I'm looking for information on Scots-Gaelic paganism" has only gotten books about "Celtic Wicca" and soft-and-fluffy "Celtic paganism" that hasn't got a single handhold in anything that wasn't mixed and melded with new age spirituality. I've had INCREDIBLY bad luck using that phrasing, and anything that meshes "celtic" with the very broad term "paganism."

Oh, I definitely know - that's one of the reasons I suggest leaving the word "Celtic" out of it altogether. I'm surprised a specific Scots phrase got you so much fluff... but I suppose Buckland wrote a Scots specific bundle of crap at one point, didn't he?

Ah well - go with what works. You picked a tricky religion, that's all I have to say wink

Quote:

Celtic cultures ARE incredibly closed off, though the CR movement seems eager to educate (if you can FIND one of them. @_@) those who are serious about studying.

I've heard mixed opinions about the CR movement as a whole, as apparently some members don't seem to really click about the import of elements of the cultures. I don't know too much about it myself, I just know that there are some members of active Celtic cultures who view the whole thing with some suspicion, be they Pagan or not. But on the other hand, at least they're making the effort to attempt to be more culturally wise and responsible. So long as they consistently evaluate what they're doing and how they're doing it, I suppose.

The whole Gael geas thing aside.  

[Esiris]

Sanguina Cruenta

Which, the closed or the distinct?

The closed bit if you could. I've seen this brought up elsewhere- but it wasn't explained in a way that made much sense to me and I think the people who were trying to explain it didn't have a whole lot of patience.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Esiris

Sanguina Cruenta

Which, the closed or the distinct?

The closed bit if you could. I've seen this brought up elsewhere- but it wasn't explained in a way that made much sense to me and I think the people who were trying to explain it didn't have a whole lot of patience.

The explanation can get a bit wordy wink and it can be a bit hard to explain.

Closed cultures are ones essentially in which outsiders don't have access to the bulk of the culture itself. So the living Celtic cultures (which is not the same as being, for e.g., Scottish or Irish), and I think Rroma as well, and most Native American cultures too. It's possible they become closed, looking at that list there, because of the tendency of these cultures to be shat upon and exploited.

At any rate. These cultures are also closed because the way in which they are learned. You have to speak the language, and essentially you need to be exposed from early childhood because the traditions are ingrained in the members of the culture to a degree that they know what is said when and why. Coming into that at an older age is like learning a tricky language as an adult: if you study long and hard you'll eventually click but you'll never speak it as well as a native speaker or as well as if you'd learned it as a child. It does happen, but it's not common, as I understand it. This is true of any culture generally, but the traditions are so large a part of the cultures themselves.

So, in an open culture, like Germanic cultures, you can look into it and take elements of the culture, so long as you do so respectfully and understanding the role of that thing in the culture, and so forth. In closed cultures, you can't do that. The role of the thing might be unclear or totally unknown to those outside the culture itself. It's essentially like Wicca, which I probably could have said at the beginning of this post and saved us all the trouble. There's some stuff available to the public, some stuff you can see, but it means something a little different in the culture itself because you have extra information, and it's information based on participation in traditions etc that other people aren't privy to. At the same time, there's a limit to outside influences, and the substance of the religion (and thus the culture) are maintained, they're not watered down or degraded by outside influences.

Things I've noticed about closed cultures so far:
Things don't get out, but things also don't get in. That is, the culture itself is protected from elements of other cultures being incorporated into it. Thus the culture itself is maintained, and survives....
.....because closed cultures tend to be smaller in number or very spread out (in the case of the Rroma, although iirc there are different types of Rroma as well...?), and....
.....they tend to be sort of within another culture, one that might be similar to or very different from the closed culture in question. For example, the Gael culture in Ireland isn't the same as the Irish culture. There are definitely similarities because they come from the same place, but the Irish culture is more open and has other influences to it, including British and Viking and, nowadays, generic global culture, American culture etc etc.... So members of these cultures may be members of other cultures as well. It's like if you're a recent migrant, and the culture you participate in outside the home is a different one to the one inside the home.
....and they tend to be cultures generally persecuted or similar at different points in history.

I could essentially a way to preserve cultures that may not have survived had they been open.

Now there are probably closed cultures that don't fall into those points I just made up right now. I mean, I'm thinking of Japan and wondering how closed that culture is... but I think it's just occasionally and vaguely xenophobic more than anything else, because it's certainly open to other cultures and embracing of those outside influences, at least to a point.  

[Esiris]

Thanks a lot. That explanation makes a lot of sense.
How can you tell if a culture is closed or not?  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

I don't know. I think you have to look into it closer and closer and talk to members of that culture. I mean, look at the Celtic cultures: there are plenty of people out there who are not only unaware that they're closed, they're unaware that they're different cultures. They lump 'em all in together and refer to them as "the Celts". I did, when I was a kid. There are still plenty of books out there on "the Celts". So much of it is ascertaining what's part of the culture and what's outsider interpretation of the culture, and then looking further into it.  

[Midnight Magpie]

Having family embedded in the particular culture you're looking to research/meld with sometimes helps. (Not always, though. It really depends on your family, if there are still family members directly connected to the culture, etc. Hearsay doesn't often help anyone.)  

[Esiris]

Sanguina Cruenta

I don't know. I think you have to look into it closer and closer and talk to members of that culture. I mean, look at the Celtic cultures: there are plenty of people out there who are not only unaware that they're closed, they're unaware that they're different cultures. They lump 'em all in together and refer to them as "the Celts". I did, when I was a kid. There are still plenty of books out there on "the Celts". So much of it is ascertaining what's part of the culture and what's outsider interpretation of the culture, and then looking further into it.

I think I understand- but I'm a little confused. With the Celts, if everyone is saying they are closed cultures (I read another post in a guild today too), there seems to not be any explanation as to why they are. I've got my own path- but I don't mind sticking up for other group's rights- but I'd like to know the why's of the reason people say it's closed before I say it.