A religious debate thread?!

[Psycho Lee]

So, I've decided to start this thread for religious debate and discussion. My judgement is saying it's not a very good idea, but I often ignore my better judgement anyway. twisted

But keep it somewhat civil. Don't just call someone's belief stupid.

Currently I'm agnostic, and a former devout liberal non-demonimatial (probably Unitarian) Christian, and before that a "Vineyard" christian, a reluctant Nazerenth (since they're pretty conservative), and a Presbyterian.  

[Psycho Lee]

Post saved for possibly future crap maybe, something.

Insert peg A into slot B.  

[Psycho Lee]

Lately I've been reading about christian stuff for my study on same-sex marriage, and also been involved in an argument on Fur Affinty forums with a born-again who takes the bible literally, who says "well, I look in the bible and whatever it says is Truth".

The problem I have with his attitude is that he takes the entire bible as God's word, AKA a bible literalist. He never tries to look at the parts critically and think about them before coming to to a decision on what they mean, instead just choosing what meaning makes him feel better about himself. He once picked out a quote from Psalms to prove a point, even though Psalms were songs of worship written by man and can't be taken as instructions from God.

In the thread, to prove the bible can't be taken literally, I posted times in the old testament where God commanded the Isrealies to kill everyone in an enemy city, including children, or times where upstanding jews treated women as objects.


In one of the threads here I mentioned the debate and said I thought the OT/Hebrew Bible God sounded like a tyrant and sadist. Mortella became offended. I have no problem with her religion or Jews in general, they make great food and seem to be nice people. But the Bible has a dark side to it, and one cannot ignore the darker side of biblical history.

However, too many churches gloss over the nasty parts. Churches say Lot fought bravely against the evil homosexual sodomites of Sodom in Genesis, but no one mentions he offered them his virgin daughters for rape. No one cares.

I can give examples sometime. I'd just have to find them. Many of them are in Genesis, Joshua, Kings.  

[xXxZeh_Emo_FluffersxXx]

well I'm a former Christian and former Atheist,

Currently 20% Agnostic, 70% Satanist and 10% Wicca.

Edit: Of course they don't mention that stuff, because if they did their god would be "Evil" and thus no longer pure and good and of course almighty and all holy as he is claimed to be.  

[[-Erik-]]

I don't know what the ******** is real or not anymore.

I am an agnostic atheist.  

[CabinFeverKitty]

I'm an atheistic buddhist, and a proud skeptic.  

[Garek Maxwell]

I'm barely a Christian, and I've found that I'll probably stick to being that way since I've never really budged much in either direction over many years.

I'm extremely skeptical of many of the claims by worshipers, and found many contradictions when applying the rules to today. Many of which are controversial, and many people don't like the idea.

For example, there is a sort of split over whether or not it is "thou shalt not murder" or "thou shalt not kill". If it's murder, then you've given the government the ability to decide what is and isn't a sin and must live with those consequences even if you don't agree with them because it is up to the government to decide these things. If it is killing that is wrong, then you cannot support any of the troops because they are trained to kill or support killers. That's their job. Sure, they do lots of other things too, but first and foremost their job is designed to kill others. It's the exact opposite of the "turn the other cheek" method.

Thus, you've got a sticky situation where either the government decides what is and isn't a sin, or you come off looking like a b*****d because it would go against your religion to support the troops.

There's plenty of other problems, such as thanks to globalization every dollar you spend ends up supporting an economic system that aids just about every kind of sin there is, making you an accomplice. The fact that every time you turn the key, you're poisoning men, women, and children. There's even the whole issue of "if God doesn't love homosexuals or their ingrained natural love for the same sex, then He's not all loving and therefore imperfect or undeserving of reciprocal treatment for his heterosexism."

I could go on and on, and that doesn't even touch on the questionable history on how well preserved the bible has been. The truth is, it's not likely it managed to survive all this time unchanged. Plus, there's stories that weren't included in the bible that may or may not be true, but were left out regardless. Some scriptures that were put in could be completely made up my random strangers, we don't know.

So, I'm left with the only rule that matters to me. Do undo others as you would have done unto you. Loving thy neighbor all that good stuff. You know, all the widely ignore stuff. neutral  

[Zella L.]

That's my #2 problem with religion in general, because it insists that faith is a virtue. Faith is belief in something without or in spite of evidence. Ergo faith is being gullible to one thing (such as the bible,) and then being stagnant and closed-minded, refusing to consider other points of view. Absolute faith is a bad thing, do not have it in any person, philosophy, or religion. Hope and trust are fine to a point, but never close your mind to the idea that they could be wrong.  

[Memorex_TDK]

Psycho Lee,

I'm a Christian and I understand where you're coming from. The bible does have a dark side to it, but the religion that I know and love incorporates the teachings of both the old (Genesis, Joshua, Kings etc.) and the new. What you might have to consider is when Jesus died, the old law died with them, therefore making things like sacrifices, purging of nations etc. obsolete. People who follow those type of rules aren't following under what the new law (the new testament) has put into place.

I hope that makes sense. I tend to ramble and lose track of...everything. sweatdrop whee  

[Xx_Hanyuu-San_xX]

Using the name Jesus in any sentence does not make a valid argument or statement let alone real sentence.

D;

Plus it completely defies history, since none of those things in the bible are true to begin with, the bible was created in the middle ages as a tool for control, so masses would stupidly obey the so called god and his Rules.

There is no actual history within' it.

Although I find it quiet hilarious it is very annoying that people seem to always think the bible contains history, it was made in the middle ages, not by some higher being, and not by some worshipers of god who supposedly existed thousands of years ago, the sooner people get these facts through their heads the sooner people can start to move forward and not a** backwards.  

[Garek Maxwell]

666 Demonic Lover 666

Using the name Jesus in any sentence does not make a valid argument or statement let alone real sentence.

But I really do mean it when I say Jesus Gonzalez went to the market for milk! crying

666 Demonic Lover 666

Plus it completely defies history, since none of those things in the bible are true to begin with,.
[...]
There is no actual history within' it.

You should publish your findings, I think a lot of historians would be interested to know that the Roman Empire and the Egyptian Dynasties never existed. (Well, at least the dynasties covered in the Bible.)

Besides, historians do sometimes look at the bible for historic knowledge. They most certainly do not, and should not, look at it from a religious standpoint. It contains cultural information that would have otherwise been lost much like most of the knowledge from so long ago. What people ate, did, worked on, etc would be less known to us without texts like the bible. It's not the only source out there, but it's not one to just ignore because you don't like what the followers do with the message.

It's like saying anything communists write about should be completely ignored, leaving a large chunk of European and Asian history to fade into obscurity.

666 Demonic Lover 666

the bible was created in the middle ages as a tool for control, so masses would stupidly obey the so called god and his Rules.

Uh, no, actually many parts existed longer before the medieval period.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint
Here's one that early Christians used.

It was only during the very early medieval period that there was a meeting to decide what should and shouldn't be included within the bible, indicating that there were many books and stories and myths circulating.

And as a PBS special I saw the later half of went, as time went on, the message got plenty distorted. Part of the reasoning for the entire protestant reformation was because of different translations of old surviving texts indicating a message inconsistent with the catholic teachings.

666 Demonic Lover 666

Although I find it quiet hilarious it is very annoying that people seem to always think the bible contains history, it was made in the middle ages, not by some higher being, and not by some worshipers of god who supposedly existed thousands of years ago, the sooner people get these facts through their heads the sooner people can start to move forward and not a** backwards.

This is extremely false. Even if it were true that it was invented in the middle ages, it would still contain relevant and important historical evidence and information. It would tell what people thought of and how they lived during the middle ages, rather than during the time periods described in the texts. It would essentially be a time capsule of the middle ages, making it very useful for historians and political scientists.

Now, I'd like to make sure it's clear that the bible is not a definitive source and I doubt it is always accurate. Given the history of it all, I would be rather surprised if it was rather accurate, so I cannot and will not defend it in it's entirety. It is a book with a different intent than documentation, so it can't be taken as pure facts. I accept and acknowledge that. However, to toss it away as nothing more than pure fantasy is not only dangerous to the field of knowledge and research, but it is misguided with ulterior motives. Motives which are not any different than the political motivations of replacing religion with communism under certain regimes and flavors of it.

If we were to throw away any sources similar to the bible, then nearly all of our ancient history would become much more clouded, if not entirely shrouded in mystery. Scanning pottery can only do so much after all.  

[Xx_Hanyuu-San_xX]

Sorry but I read part way through and realized your completely ******** retarded.

Xians created such so called "Findings" to create and make it look like they had been around for so called "Thousands of years." to allow themselves to claim they were around for said "Thousands of years." thus making fools like yourself fall for their word. also your claims of the first part of your quote are ridiculously off topic for what I was speaking of, Jesus Christ never existed, God didn't create man kind, Lucifer isn't an angel that rebelled from a so called god, in fact it was quiet the opposite, other God's rebelled and attacked him, which brings us to a different story that reveals even more so the fact that it is not a history book, if anything you can call it a mind control device and a blasphemy device.

If you don't get it, don't reply, I don't really care to waste my energy speaking to children like you who know completely nothing.

Also before the bible you know who people worshiped? The GODS, in fact they were more then happy and actually WELCOME to speak to people in person, now things have changed, and they are constantly bombarded with the bible and it's blasphemy of them, on a side note if it weren't for Lucifer and the rest of the Gods we'd be far from where we are now in terms of mentality, among other things.

In fact if you see the bible as history then forget science existing as well.  

[DarkWolfLove]

666 Demonic Lover 666

And this is exactly where things get sticky.

To say you're right over the other is where all religion goes wrong.

Who's to say what's right and what's wrong?
Who's to say one thing is above all while all others are false?

I've seen your arguments before and I've even said to you that titles and names can be replaced and you'll sound just like the bible-thumpers you hate so very much.

You are a prime example of why religion is deadly.
Why religion is so morally ignorant.
You are completely disregarding another person's statement just to push your own beliefs on another person.
You are no better than the people who shove their faith and holy books down other peoples' throats because they are "right above all."

 

[DarkWolfLove]

As a reply to this thread in general.
Honestly, "to each his own."
If you believe in something, good for you.
I'm actually jealous that some people can follow a faith without any major facts and find peace.
I truly wish I could believe in something as nice as paradise or heaven.

It's only when people starting leaping down each others' throats about who is right and who is wrong that I get upset.
If your religion is all about being hypocritical, no ******** thank you.
I'd much rather accept all for what they believe, as long as they leave me to what I believe.

 

[Xx_Hanyuu-San_xX]

Religion isn't deadly, the bible is.

Also

Their are MANY other ways we can learn of our history, and the BIBLE is not one of them.

The only effect tossing it aside and or burning it would do is cause an uproar from the Xian churches, claiming us as the "Devil" and that we must be killed and tortured to save the world.

It would not ******** up any history at all.

Also to any laveyan satanists out there your a complete retard as well, the Satanic bible and the words within' it that are of (Un-translated.) Enochian, (Original Language of the Gods.) for example 90% of the names are speaking of the so called Xian god, in fact, they are almost always Translating to, "Praise God Almighty." though not quiet in exactly those words, if you understand the names are an Alias of the Xian god then you can simply Translate it to, "God"
(Removed because it was apparently possibly in english within the book though the fact it praises Xian god still stands.)

And also " Page 204, the Eighth Key is very blasphemous:
"the dragon doth sink" The Dragon is a sacred symbol of Satan and symbolizes the spiritual power (kundalini) within us all. "

The dragon doth sink, is a change of words on the fall of Lucifer and the other angels in the bible.

Of course still noting that it is a blasphemy of Satan and not actual history.

If your actually interested in learning of the Enochian here is the link,

http://www.angelfire.com/empire/serpentis666/Explanation.html

I sorely apologize if I came off as Ranting, but please bear in mind I just woke up and it's like 2:54am, so anything that normally annoys me tends to piss me off. sweatdrop especially when Father satan' is being Blasphemed.

And on another note I normally ignore or block people who bring up the bible as an argument of it being fact. sweatdrop