Paganism under your Parent's Roof

[Esiris]

I was talking in another thread about practicing in a parent's house who doesn't want you to practice paganism.

Some of the talk was about it being dishonorable.

Is there ever a time when even if it's not the best- it's not as bad as that?

Like- if you do protection magic for yourself if your parents hurt you?
It's easy to say "Call the cops!" and stuff like that- and I encourage that too- but it isn't always as simple as that. sweatdrop  

[TheStarlessSkye]

The only thing my dad is annoyed about is I leave candles unattended sometimes. I'm allowed to practice.  

[Aakosir]

I just did everything while my mom was out or asleep. But I used to spend a lot of time in my room so it was normal for me to dissapear for hours... My mom had an idea, but didn't voice any concerns.  

[Morgandria]

Esiris

I was talking in another thread about practicing in a parent's house who doesn't want you to practice paganism.

Some of the talk was about it being dishonorable.

Is there ever a time when even if it's not the best- it's not as bad as that?

Like- if you do protection magic for yourself if your parents hurt you?
It's easy to say "Call the cops!" and stuff like that- and I encourage that too- but it isn't always as simple as that. sweatdrop

First off: people in situations of abuse need to worry about getting out to safety, before worrying about their freedom to perform religious rites in the situation of abuse. Protective magic is all well and good, but if you don't leave the root cause for protection behind, all the magic in the world won't help.

I'm trying to figure out how to phrase this. I don't believe people should lie to their parents. If you choose to do something at home, your parents notice, and they express their desire that you should stop, or not do that thing in the home - you should stop. Going on with it behind their backs, is wrong.

At the same time - I think it is perfectly possible to practice pagan religion quietly, privately, and unobtrusively, while living with people who may not approve of such things. The idea is simply to not be noticed. It isn't lying to someone, if you simply don't tell them something in the first place.

When I still lived with my parents, I didn't practice ritual in either of their homes. If I really felt the need to express something ritually, I took it outside, far from the house, typically as the midpoint of a long walk. I painted a lot of things, especially from myths and lore. I was allowed candles at my mother's, provided they were tealights and in glass. I wore no symbols. I didn't leave things lying around that overtly screamed 'pagan'. I collected natural objects and kept them in my room. I liked to spend a lot of time outdoors. I read books I borrowed from the library, AT the library. I wasn't nescessarily concerned about hiding anything, but really more felt that it wasn't anyone else's business, and I didn't need to demonstrate my beliefs or feelings to anyone to validate them.

I don't think my parents would have nescessarily disapproved, but their divorce already made things more difficult than I would have liked at home, and I didn't want to rock the boat or make anything worse. I had nowhere else to go, no way to get there - literally - and I didn't live in town, so being shitty to my parents over what they wanted in their home wasn't an option, if I wanted a roof over my head.

I think if you know your parents don't want you doing something in the house, and you keep doing it behind their back, it's wrong. Doesn't matter if that thing is paganism, clipping your toenails at the dinner table, or drinking out of the milk carton. They work hard to give you shelter, clothing, and food - it sucks for them to have their home, their own space they worked hard to earn, taken for granted. I mean...Wake up, go to work - work sucks, come home tired - spend the night fighting with your kids who don't listen to you, go to sleep. Lather rinse repeat. Who wants that?

It's hard to see that when you're still living at home and haven't ever been on your own - you don't have the same perspective, since you feel like you've got no choice where you live, and that it's not a right, it's a priviledge. There were times I wasn't sure we'd have a roof over our heads - we were poor after my parents split. Maybe it gave me a different perspective on it. I couldn't take things for granted.

Magic...Magic is trickier. Less a hospitality thing for me, but again, I think so long as your parents haven't concretely said "Don't practice magic in my house", you'll be ok if you're not obvious. I'm not talking being sneaky about anything, or hiding things - rather, doing stuff you could leave in plain sight and not have recognized as 'magic', or doing things outside, away from the home, or doing things with no outward signs or materials at all.

Most of my early work was purely energy work. Material-wise, I always had ribbon and yarn and embroidery thread around for crafting, but that was about it. My practice was largely just the basics - centering, grounding, meditation, visualization, mastering my own energy body, and moving energy around. I didn't cast spells so much as spend several years learning and practicing what I consider foundational skills for magic. Again, I liked working outdoors, in open spaces. If you can find a place outside for working that isn't highly visible and won't be disturbed by others afterwards, that's very helpful. I didn't start doing a lot of other things until after I left home.

I don't have a problem with people using whatever magical means they have at their disposal, for whatever reason - but I think you can do just about anything in a manner that's discrete, when it comes to magic. Now that I'm an adult, and in my own home, I freely use all sorts of bits and pieces - incense, candles, oils, stones, etc. - for the purposes of physical representation and psychodrama. I -like- those things. But I also know that if push comes to shove, I don't need them.

I guess overall I'm saying you can practice what you like - as long as you keep it relatively unnoticed, and inoffensive. If you can't do that, and get told outright that what you're doing isn't appreciated or welcome in your home, then it's rude and dishonouring your parents' hard work to continue doing the offensive behavior.  

[blindfaith^_^]

Esiris

I was talking in another thread about practicing in a parent's house who doesn't want you to practice paganism.

Some of the talk was about it being dishonorable.

I'm not sure about honor, but I know it's rude to live in a space provided for you that you have not contributed to (if you're paying rent that's on par with the local going rate and helping to provide for food and utilities, it's a different scenario) and to continually disregard the desires of the person who has provided you a place to stay. Beyond rude, it's disrespectful, belittling, and completely thoughtless.

If you were staying at a friend's home and they asked you not to do x then it would pretty poor form to do it anyway. It would be detrimental to your relationship with that friend. They would have a right to be upset and to ask you to leave or to never ask you back.

Because I'm curious, what does practicing paganism entail that this person/people have been asked not to do it?

Quote:

Is there ever a time when even if it's not the best- it's not as bad as that?

In regards to respecting house rules, it seems complicated to me. I mean I don't think that anyone can stop the thoughts or feelings a person has in their head. How can anyone know if you're saying a silent prayer or who that prayer is to? If you're meditation or raising energy or doing a silent rite while making a bracelet, cooking, gardening, or sweeping, I can't see that as bad. To some degree, the nature of some forms of paganism (particularly eclectic forms) it is impossible for one not to practice it. I mean when I straighten my room in the morning, that's part of a ceremony towards my path where I respect the space and moment I'm in. I couldn't stop from the mental process that makes the mundane sacred if I wanted to. The flip side is that my family would never know that this is a religious moment for me unless I shared that information. Why would I tell them something they would find distressing that none of us can help?

I can be discrete, heck I think my faith is invisible to people used to mainstream religion, but the belief and the thought patterns I have can't be helped.

I guess in some ways I've contradicted myself. The point I'm trying to get to is that behavior requests or requests about what physical objects are brought into a space that isn't yours should be respected, but what you bring in your heart and mind is your own. It's preferable not to antagonize others and disrupt the peace with it by sharing when you know it would hurt others, but not a moral imperative.

Quote:

Like- if you do protection magic for yourself if your parents hurt you?
It's easy to say "Call the cops!" and stuff like that- and I encourage that too- but it isn't always as simple as that. sweatdrop

I think if your parents or guardian is hurting you, then you've got more important things on your plate to deal with than respecting their rules about spell casting.  

[Esiris]

The reason I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this stuff is that getting out is sometimes a matter of time.

Being bounced around the foster system while abusive people try their best to get you back for the welfare money isn't always as easy as walking up to a cop and saying "Please help me!"

Even when neighbors call the cops- sometimes a good lie by an adult will do more than the truth from a kid.

I guess I just feel there's a difference between a parent scolding a kid and telling them "Not here" and a parent terrorizing a kid and us telling them that whatever comfort they find in their spirituality will end in a whooping.  

[kyndryana3]

I think respect is a two-way street. Most parents have their children's best interest in mind when they forbid things (or at least what they think is best for their children). Practicing magic is something that is still somewhat taboo, and somewhat scary to a lot of people, and it is understandable that a lot of parents don't understand it well enough to make informed decisions. In this case, I definitely think that respecting your parent's wishes and not practicing in the house is a way to show them that you appreciate their concern for your well-being.

If a parent/guardian is using forbidding things as a way to punish you for something you didn't do or that was out of your control, as a way to keep you cowed and fearful or just to be spiteful, I think that is a different matter. The question I would ask myself in that situation is: what would happen if they found out I wasn't behaving. If it is already a situation that is abusive, or is threatening to be abusive, it might be in your best interest to not do anything that would get you seriously in trouble. As others have stated, the best thing to do would be to work towards getting yourself out of the situation, in the manner that was safest for you.

I also think that there is a difference between casting a ritual with tools (even such common items as candles) and prayer or meditation. There are a lot of things, good foundation skills, that can be worked on that aren't really active practice of magic, such as visualization skills. There are also a lot of other approaches that might be more acceptable to your parents that you can explore while living with them. I was lucky, my parents never forbid me from doing things, they just 'highly recommended' that I not do things....as long as I didn't rub their face in what I was doing and kept my grades up, did my chores and behaved well, they pretty much treated my room like my personal space and didn't intrude. They weren't really understanding of magical practice, but oddly they actually gave me a book on a form of energy healing.  

[oOGarrettOo]

I was fortunate enough to have grown up in a household where I was free to choose my own beliefs. My parents instilled morals and the like, but my mother was always willing to help me learn about different faiths and creeds and such. So when it comes to learning about faiths and trying to establish ones own, I think so long as the parents aren't dead set against it, there's nothing wrong with researching and learning about different things. If the parents would prefer that books not be in the house, or research not done on the family computer, there is always the library. I did a lot of study in the library just because it was free wink

When it comes to magic and rituals, I'm of the personal opinion that most minors shouldn't be experimenting with it anyway. And at that age, still 13 or 14 and such, when the parents are dead set against it, I think the child is too young to fully appreciate and understand magic and ritual anyhow.

Ritual, maybe, it's all usually structured, bogus stuff from the books they're reading, so at least they have some guide to follow.

Magic, no. I know a lot of people are going to be upset by this, but no. Casting a spell from a book has always struck me as foolish. There is a certain amount of concentration and dedication that is required in spellcraft and magic and I don't think a teenager, especially under 17, can handle it. There are so many stresses on the body and mind, that I don't think it's a good idea. In school, I heard so many stories of people my age casting these high energy spells, and they usually always went wrong.  

[blindfaith^_^]

Esiris

I guess I just feel there's a difference between a parent scolding a kid and telling them "Not here" and a parent terrorizing a kid and us telling them that whatever comfort they find in their spirituality will end in a whooping.

I'd agree that there is a difference between the two scenarios. Personally I think it's still in a person's best interest to keep a very low profile and remind his or herself that the living situation is temporary, but that's more how I think I'd handle things then a moral imperative.

When someone is hurting a student, especially if that person is responsible for that young person's well being, then the the rules change. We're talking about the kid or young adult in survivor mode now, which means that he or she should take whatever steps will keep them safe and help keep them mentally and physically whole.  

[Lilithiann]

When my mother found out I wasn't of her faith, she was rather upset. If I was working on something, she'd wait till I wasn't home and throw away my work or my pages. Like one time I was working on a small protection spell...potion thingy...I don't quite remember the details, and a part in it required a few days before it was ready. My mom found the bowel of herbs I had collected for it and threw it all away. I think I ended up accidentally jinxing the family cat because she threw it out. Like I said, I don't remember the details well, so don't ask what I was doing.

Then this other time, I had picked up a copy of the satanic bible because I wanted to learn and educate myself on something I barely know. When reading it, I found out everything I grew up hearing about it was a lie and the satanic bible was a book of basically logic and free-thinking. My mom found it hidden under my bed and threw it out, even though I paid for it.

There was this one time I was burning some sage for spiritual reasons and meditation, my mom flipped out and told me to put it out. She said it made the house smell bad....which was BS cause I kept it by the window so it wouldn't smoke up the house as much and I like the smell of burning sage.  

[Morgandria]

Little Fuzzy Bunneh

When my mother found out I wasn't of her faith, she was rather upset. If I was working on something, she'd wait till I wasn't home and throw away my work or my pages. Like one time I was working on a small protection spell...potion thingy...I don't quite remember the details, and a part in it required a few days before it was ready. My mom found the bowel of herbs I had collected for it and threw it all away. I think I ended up accidentally jinxing the family cat because she threw it out. Like I said, I don't remember the details well, so don't ask what I was doing.

Then this other time, I had picked up a copy of the satanic bible because I wanted to learn and educate myself on something I barely know. When reading it, I found out everything I grew up hearing about it was a lie and the satanic bible was a book of basically logic and free-thinking. My mom found it hidden under my bed and threw it out, even though I paid for it.

While I don't think parents should be going through a child's room or things on any sort of basis - I think privacy is important, in that a child needs it to learn discretion - at the same time, it's still your mother's house. If she doesn't want something in the house, she shouldn't have to have it there. It might have been more polite of her to ask you to remove these things yourself, or not do them, but her actions seem reactionary, rather than thought-out.

I hope, though, that you understand that her actions are in reaction to yours in the first place - that you chose to practice certain things, or bring certain materials into her house, without considering how she would feel about them, or how she would percieve them. Chances are you had some idea that she would not approve of these things, or nescessarily understand what you were doing, and would react the way she did - and yet you chose to do these things anyway. We earn the consequences of our actions.

Little Fuzzy Bunneh

There was this one time I was burning some sage for spiritual reasons and meditation, my mom flipped out and told me to put it out. She said it made the house smell bad....which was BS cause I kept it by the window so it wouldn't smoke up the house as much and I like the smell of burning sage.

I can't say I disagree with your mother. Burning sage -stinks-. I loathe the stuff. Mind you, I come from a family with severe allergies, so I'm used to a smoke-and-scentfree home. I never experienced sage, thankfully, until I was out on my own...and I'm always surprised at the people who get seriously indignant or upset at you if you don't think sage is a mysterious, wonderful, holy smell. To me it just smells burnt and rank. I don't even like the smell or taste of it in food. I'd like it even less reeking from my carpets, curtains, and bed linens. Ew.

It doesn't matter that you like it. She doesn't, and it's her house. I somehow am in doubt you asked her beforehand, as well - so you didn't have permission. Whatever her reasons are - doesn't like open flame or burning materials in the home, doesn't want the smell, etc. - are perfectly valid. Her house, her rules. Even if you're an adult child living at home, it's still disrespectful to expect your parents to 'just deal' with whatever you choose to do in their home. Respect is a two-way street.

I mean - it's no different than sharing a house with other people for the purposes of paying the rent. If she was a roommate and not a parent, the situation would be the same - it's rude to presume it's ok to do something that affects the whole household, simply because you think it's ok. Your roommate could not like the smell. They could be deathly allergic. They could have respiratory issues that worsen on exposure to smoke. Your assumption could be merely rude - or it could be dangerous.  

[broken_bleeding_angel]

Morgandria

Little Fuzzy Bunneh

When my mother found out I wasn't of her faith, she was rather upset. If I was working on something, she'd wait till I wasn't home and throw away my work or my pages. Like one time I was working on a small protection spell...potion thingy...I don't quite remember the details, and a part in it required a few days before it was ready. My mom found the bowel of herbs I had collected for it and threw it all away. I think I ended up accidentally jinxing the family cat because she threw it out. Like I said, I don't remember the details well, so don't ask what I was doing.

Then this other time, I had picked up a copy of the satanic bible because I wanted to learn and educate myself on something I barely know. When reading it, I found out everything I grew up hearing about it was a lie and the satanic bible was a book of basically logic and free-thinking. My mom found it hidden under my bed and threw it out, even though I paid for it.

While I don't think parents should be going through a child's room or things on any sort of basis - I think privacy is important, in that a child needs it to learn discretion - at the same time, it's still your mother's house. If she doesn't want something in the house, she shouldn't have to have it there. It might have been more polite of her to ask you to remove these things yourself, or not do them, but her actions seem reactionary, rather than thought-out.

I hope, though, that you understand that her actions are in reaction to yours in the first place - that you chose to practice certain things, or bring certain materials into her house, without considering how she would feel about them, or how she would percieve them. Chances are you had some idea that she would not approve of these things, or nescessarily understand what you were doing, and would react the way she did - and yet you chose to do these things anyway. We earn the consequences of our actions.

Little Fuzzy Bunneh

There was this one time I was burning some sage for spiritual reasons and meditation, my mom flipped out and told me to put it out. She said it made the house smell bad....which was BS cause I kept it by the window so it wouldn't smoke up the house as much and I like the smell of burning sage.

I can't say I disagree with your mother. Burning sage -stinks-. I loathe the stuff. Mind you, I come from a family with severe allergies, so I'm used to a smoke-and-scentfree home. I never experienced sage, thankfully, until I was out on my own...and I'm always surprised at the people who get seriously indignant or upset at you if you don't think sage is a mysterious, wonderful, holy smell. To me it just smells burnt and rank. I don't even like the smell or taste of it in food. I'd like it even less reeking from my carpets, curtains, and bed linens. Ew.

It doesn't matter that you like it. She doesn't, and it's her house. I somehow am in doubt you asked her beforehand, as well - so you didn't have permission. Whatever her reasons are - doesn't like open flame or burning materials in the home, doesn't want the smell, etc. - are perfectly valid. Her house, her rules. Even if you're an adult child living at home, it's still disrespectful to expect your parents to 'just deal' with whatever you choose to do in their home. Respect is a two-way street.

I mean - it's no different than sharing a house with other people for the purposes of paying the rent. If she was a roommate and not a parent, the situation would be the same - it's rude to presume it's ok to do something that affects the whole household, simply because you think it's ok. Your roommate could not like the smell. They could be deathly allergic. They could have respiratory issues that worsen on exposure to smoke. Your assumption could be merely rude - or it could be dangerous.

Actually certain types of sage have different smells. Desert Sage has a sweeter smell and doesn't leave much of a nasty smell as other sage types will.  

[Morgandria]

broken_bleeding_angel

Actually certain types of sage have different smells. Desert Sage has a sweeter smell and doesn't leave much of a nasty smell as other sage types will.

I have run into all kinds of sage in my journeys - I'm Native, so it's not something I can really get away from in that setting. I have yet to meet one that didn't smell like burning wet dog to me. xd

Nothing wrong with sage for those who like its' scent - my point was more that not everyone is going to like it or appreciate its' near-ubiquitous use by eclectic neo-pagans. It's ok to dislike things, even if they're considered sacred.

My point on the last post was more that it's very rude to assume that everyone's ok with what you choose to do in a shared space, without consulting them about it first - especially when it comes down to something that could be a serious health issue for another person.  

[broken_bleeding_angel]

Morgandria

broken_bleeding_angel

Actually certain types of sage have different smells. Desert Sage has a sweeter smell and doesn't leave much of a nasty smell as other sage types will.

I have run into all kinds of sage in my journeys - I'm Native, so it's not something I can really get away from in that setting. I have yet to meet one that didn't smell like burning wet dog to me. xd

Nothing wrong with sage for those who like its' scent - my point was more that not everyone is going to like it or appreciate its' near-ubiquitous use by eclectic neo-pagans. It's ok to dislike things, even if they're considered sacred.

My point on the last post was more that it's very rude to assume that everyone's ok with what you choose to do in a shared space, without consulting them about it first - especially when it comes down to something that could be a serious health issue for another person.

True, but it would also have to be the same from the other end. Like if said parents smoke in the house, then would it not be hypocritical of them to complain about smoke in the house?