LGBT Christians

[joeyp74]

Lately I have been hearing a lot of arguments about, and mostly against, gay marriage and the morality of the LGBT community. It says in the Bible that homosexuality is wrong, marriage is only for a man and a woman, and I'm sure we all know these points.

I don't mean to be argumentative myself, but I just want to share these thoughts. Doesn't the Bible, and Jesus, say that we are all in sin? Supposing homosexuality is a sin, are our sins any worse than yours? Have you ever had unholy thoughts of another man's wife? Have you ever cursed at your parents? Do you lie? Do you judge others, when judgement is for God and God only?

We all do these things, maybe some more than others. But no human has the right to claim eminence over another. We are all dirty, rotten, sinners who have been saved by the grace of God. Gay or not, we are saved.

I am new and if this topic has been tired out, I apologize, but I just wanted to share.  

[Lord Alucard Ere Casanova]

I think the biggest point against it is that marriage must be performed by a priest/preacher/other holy figure according to Christian tradition. It's not just a signing of papers. So, with that in mind, the preacher would be asked to sin as well by blessing a sin. While we are forgiven for our sins, that does not make sinning ok. If we can avoid sinning it is always best to do so.

That said, my point of view on the matter is simply "whatever." I'm not for it because I'm not gay, not lesbian, don't really know anybody that is, and it doesn't effect me. While I would love our country to allow us to be as free as the people tend to brag about being, we are not. In my eyes there are bigger fish to fry and that is what I focus on.

On the topic of gays and lesbians in general, I also don't really care. We're all human, right? And please, nobody feed me that bull about humans being the only creature that performs this "unholy and sacrilegious act." I used to have a cat that made other male cats who didn't go that way... very unhappy. Same with a dog, humps everything regardless of gender, species, or even life (poor table...). And it's not just mine, I've seen it from plenty of animals; pets, wild, and simply in captivity all alike.

While we are no longer in touch I did have a gay friend in the past and now that I think about it I do actually have some bi friends, all girls. They are some of the most loyal, intelligent, and successful people I know. They have been there for me when I needed them more often then fellow Christians, who I often hear some excuse from for why they can't help me out with serious problems.  

[rmcdra]

I don't believe homosexuality or homosexual sex to be a sin. Here is an infodump that was put together refuting and clarifying scripture taken out of context.

http://www.gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=15754679  

[Eltanin Sadachbia]

I might have a twisted view on the matter, but I feel that the tendancy of people getting away from the idea of family is a necessary and natural way evolution is taking our species because we are getting too crowded... Homosexuality is just one of the more visible routes this evolutionary trend takes...

Honestly, I have read that there has been a divergence of brain patterns found that show there is something more going on than what many fundamentalist Christian groups claim is just a rebellion against nature or what have you... there are also a small fringe of the scientific community claiming that we are seeing the emergence of a 'third' gender, although i am not entirely sure what that means yet. sweatdrop

It is also proven that homosexual people are more likely to be found in greater percentages in places that are overpopulated, and that isn't because homosexual people are moving to the overpopulated areas, they are most likely born in overpopulated areas, which is what suggests to me my theory in the first place.

Besides, I think Christianity focuses too much on sex anyway. There are more important issues, like people starving, or suffering from natural disasters, or children without families, or families living with abuse... Why the Hell is so much of our time wasted on who is okay to have sex with who?

I don't begrudge anyone finding someone they are happy being with, everyone deserves that, and I don't think it should matter if it is a man/woman , man/man, or woman/woman... and IF homosexuality is a sin, then it isn't up to anyone to judge anothers' lifestyle anyway, that's what we have a conscience for.  

[Matt Pniewski]

I'm a begin of what Jim Wallis said, which was something along the lines of "Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. There are are few passages about homosexuality, and all of them are pretty contextual. there are plenty of verses about Poverty, and we don't talk about that".

Forgive me for not getting the exact quote. As far as Marriage is concerned, I leave that to the discretion of the minister. It is not for the state to decide if the church will allow it. But Marriage is still legal before it is Religious. The state should allow that- It's a basic human right. As long as they are not forcing Churches that would not normally allow it to perform thse marriages.



I would hope, of course, my Church would allow it.  

[StaticJennifer]

these are just my view points,its obvious,the woman & man sexually were made for each other.

but in love,i think its more of if you truely love each other,then i see no wrong in true love.

but in my opinon,i always found it kinda gross,but thats just me xD.

but its kinda like the point of is masterbating a sin,no its not,its only the lustful thoughts =D lol,but meh,its out of convo subject xD. sorry

anyway. ^^  

[joeyp74]

You guys had a lot of interesting comments! smile I just thought it interesting topic for Christians. Although I don't think it should be a debate in the first place. I am biased too though.  

[Inspirational ANON]

its a sin.

Leviticus 18:6 "You shall not lie with a man as one lies with a female. It is an abomination." A similar verse occurs two chapters later, in Leviticus 20:13: "A man who sleeps with another man is an abomination and should be executed."  

[rmcdra]

Inspire Infekt

its a sin.

Leviticus 18:6 "You shall not lie with a man as one lies with a female. It is an abomination." A similar verse occurs two chapters later, in Leviticus 20:13: "A man who sleeps with another man is an abomination and should be executed."

I disagree:

2 Corinthians 3

13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

 

[Lord Alucard Ere Casanova]

Inspire Infekt

its a sin.

Leviticus 18:6 "You shall not lie with a man as one lies with a female. It is an abomination." A similar verse occurs two chapters later, in Leviticus 20:13: "A man who sleeps with another man is an abomination and should be executed."

When looking up those lines I got these...

Leviticus 18:6 "None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD."

Leviticus 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." This verse is one amongst many which I will bring up in a moment.

I know my beliefs differ on this matter, I often get lectured for differentiating the OT from the NT, but I don't believe everything from the Old Testament really holds true in the modern day. I believe much of what was written in the OT should be taken metaphorically or merely as a historical note. In this case, the world was likely much less populated back then and so it was preferable that people would reproduce. This said I'll get back to the verses around Leviticus 20:13...

"For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him." In this case it is important to define "curse." It could mean swearing, in which case many teenagers are screwed.

"And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death." Here's a somewhat fun one because many times the case is that the married individual finds a single guy/girl and doesn't let he/she know of his/her relationship. Thus one commits adultery knowingly and the other commits it unknowingly. In our world today all laws are taken literally; as it is written it MUST be followed- ignorance is no excuse.

"And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." and "And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them." These two are, as far as I know, rarely problems, but they come next so I'm sharing them anyways. This has taken us right up to 20:12, so we can skip one since it's already been covered.

"And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you." Holding my thought as I post the next couple lines...

"And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast." "And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Notice how in each line the words "they shall surely be put to death" follow the crime? This is why I see the OT as obsolete. It's hard to believe in an "all loving and compassionate God" when every time someone makes a mistake he says "OFF WITH HIS (or her or their) HEAD(s)!!!" Seriously, he's supposed to be like a dad, right?

I know I ticked my dad off tons of times growing up, most kids do at some point due to rebellious stages or otherwise having to learn the hard way, but our fathers in most cases do not sentence us to death. It might feel like it for some people once the parents take away certain luxuries such as cell phones, computers, television, or the privilege of driving their vehicles, but they don't literally kill their children for breaking rules.

This brings me to another point. The bibles that Christians read have been translated and retranslated countless times throughout history. To the point that we have a wide variety of versions, as shown by the difference between the quoted post and the lines I found. Anyone who has ever looked up translations of languages or even better learned a new language knows that most languages don't translate perfectly. It's also been proven that parts of the original bible have been modified or removed intentionally and certain parts of some of our bibles today have been added. Because of this, I trust long talks with God during prayer and/or meditation over man made text.

Sorry for the long post... I'm bored out of my mind, packed with caffeine, and felt like ranting somewhere.  

[Shanna66]

i love you right now smile thats one thing i always bring up whenever people tell me im going to hell because of who i find attractive if they are being mean and judgmental about it. they have no room to talk since god views all sins equally. we are all sinners yet god still loves me even though im such a horrible sinner because of something i cant help

also i dont take the bible literally. it was written many years after christ died and lets face it, people have a habit of using religion to gain power and its been edited quite a bit and most of us in the modern world dont do alot with the old testiment anymore.  

[Sir Oswulf]

To my mind, the more useful question is not "is homosexuality sin?" but rather "is homosexuality any more a sin than heterosexuality?" It seems to me that either is sin to the extent that you allow it to separate you from God.  

[rmcdra]

Fiona Pond

To my mind, the more useful question is not "is homosexuality sin?" but rather "is homosexuality any more a sin than heterosexuality?" It seems to me that either is sin to the extent that you allow it to separate you from God.

Very good point.  

[Lord Alucard Ere Casanova]

Fiona Pond

To my mind, the more useful question is not "is homosexuality sin?" but rather "is homosexuality any more a sin than heterosexuality?" It seems to me that either is sin to the extent that you allow it to separate you from God.

I think that's assuming one and/or the other will separate a person from God, but it also suggests that if neither one does than neither one is a sin. That I agree with.  

[rmcdra]

Lord Kilo Von Mortenson

Fiona Pond

To my mind, the more useful question is not "is homosexuality sin?" but rather "is homosexuality any more a sin than heterosexuality?" It seems to me that either is sin to the extent that you allow it to separate you from God.

I think that's assuming one and/or the other will separate a person from God, but it also suggests that if neither one does than neither one is a sin. That I agree with.

I don't want to speak for her but what I got from her post was that the "question isn't if Homosexuality is a sin, but rather how do you let whatever your sexual preference is separate yourself from God." I could be reading more into it than what is there but that's why I thought her comment was insightful.