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Theodicy, God and Suffering - A debate between Dinesh D'Souza and Bart Ehrman

Comment on Ehrmans problem of the prophets vs the Book of Job.
Bart say the two are in conflict with one another in terms of how it explains suffering, claiming it has the be one or the other. Suffering either has to be by God's hand punishing people through war, famine and droughts, or God's people suffering having done nothing particular that merits suffering. Both can be true. Living in a fallen world that is at odds with God, and an active opponent of God walking about it is not unlikely to experience suffering if you belong to God. Being made in the image of God we are more than likely targets of the Devils anger and hatred towards God. Our first encounter with him is in the garden of Eden where he tricks man, making him question God and disobey his Creator.

So we see he has a history of wanting to inflict damage (irreversible damage preferably) and pain on Man.
It may be that this is the best way of as many as possible to come to know God. We know God can turn evil into good. See the history about Joseph (Genesis 37 - Genesis 41).


Does Evil and Suffering Disprove God's Existence?

On the Tsunami Bart asked who's free will caused that. Adam's free will in a sense. Through one man sin entered into the world, and we are living in a sinful fallen world. Creation itself fell along side Adam, and so I believe we can say that though the tsunami was not necessarily caused by the sins of those who died in it, we can say that free will was involved.

Romans:21-22
…that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--

It could also be the free will of Satan that is the cause of natural disaster.
Satan and the fallen angels obviously are free to choose their actions though they conflict with God's will. Who is Satan the opponent of? Though I see it as likely that they are the indirect cause, Adam's fall and creations fall with him being the direct cause.


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"Most Christians believe that God intervenes in their life to set things right, and to fix suffering... If that is the case then why doesn't God intervene more often?"

First of all that the majority believes something doesn't make it true. What does the Bible say?

John 16:33
"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."

Acts 14:22
strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith. "We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God," they said.

Acts 9:16
I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."

Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,

2 Corinthians 12:1-10
New International Version (NIV)
Paul’s Vision and His Thorn

12 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell. 5 I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. 6 Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say, 7 or because of these surpassingly great revelations. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Job 32
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Elihu in Anger Rebukes Job

32 Then these three men ceased answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 But the anger of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram burned; against Job his anger burned because he justified himself [a]before God. 3 And his anger burned against his three friends because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job. 4 Now Elihu had waited to speak to Job because they were years older than he. 5 And when Elihu saw that there was no answer in the mouth of the three men his anger burned.

6 So Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite [c]spoke out and said,

“I am young in years and you are old;
Therefore I was shy and afraid to tell you [d]what I think.
7 “I [e]thought [f]age should speak,
And [g]increased years should teach wisdom.
8 “But it is a spirit in man,
And the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding.
9 “The [h]abundant in years may not be wise,
Nor may elders understand justice.
10 “So I say, ‘Listen to me,
I too will tell [j]what I think.’
11 “Behold, I waited for your words,
I listened to your reasonings,
While you [k]pondered what to say.
12 “I even paid close attention to you;
[l]Indeed, there was no one who refuted Job,
Not one of you who answered his words.
13 “Do not say,
‘We have found wisdom;
God will [m]rout him, not man.’
14 “For he has not arranged his words against me,
Nor will I reply to him with your [n]arguments.
15 “They are dismayed, they no longer answer;
Words have [o]failed them.
16 “Shall I wait, because they do not speak,
Because they [p]stop and no longer answer?
17 “I too will answer my share,
I also will tell my opinion.
18 “For I am full of words;
The spirit within me constrains me.
19 “Behold, my belly is like unvented wine,
Like new wineskins it is about to burst.
20 “Let me speak that I may get relief;
Let me open my lips and answer.
21 “Let me now be partial to no one,
Nor flatter any man.
22 “For I do not know how to flatter,
Else my Maker would soon take me away.
Footnotes:

Job 32:2 Or more than
Job 32:4 Lit for Job with words; or possibly while they were speaking with Job
Job 32:6 Lit answered
Job 32:6 Lit my knowledge
Job 32:7 Lit said
Job 32:7 Lit days
Job 32:7 Lit many
Job 32:9 Or nobles
Job 32:10 Or said
Job 32:10 Lit my knowledge
Job 32:11 Lit searched out words
Job 32:12 Lit Behold
Job 32:13 Lit drive away
Job 32:14 Lit words
Job 32:15 Lit moved away from
Job 32:16 Lit stand

Job 34
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Elihu Vindicates God’s Justice

34 Then Elihu continued and said,

2 “Hear my words, you wise men,
And listen to me, you who know.
3 “For the ear tests words
As the palate tastes food.
4 “Let us choose for ourselves what is right;
Let us know among ourselves what is good.
5 “For Job has said, ‘I am righteous,
But God has taken away my right;
6 [a]Should I lie concerning my right?
My wound is incurable, though I am without transgression.’
7 “What man is like Job,
Who drinks up derision like water,
8 Who goes in company with the workers of iniquity,
And walks with wicked men?
9 “For he has said, ‘It profits a man nothing
When he [c]is pleased with God.’
10 “Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding.
Far be it from God to do wickedness,
And from the Almighty to do wrong.
11 “For He pays a man according to his work,
And makes [d]him find it according to his way.
12 “Surely, God will not act wickedly,
And the Almighty will not pervert justice.
13 “Who gave Him authority over the earth?
And who has laid on Him the whole world?
14 “If He should [e]determine to do so,
If He should gather to Himself His spirit and His breath,
15 All flesh would perish together,
And man would return to dust.
16 “But if you have understanding, hear this;
Listen to the sound of my words.
17 “Shall one who hates justice rule?
And will you condemn the righteous mighty One,
18 Who says to a king, ‘Worthless one,’
To nobles, ‘Wicked ones’;
19 Who shows no partiality to princes
Nor regards the rich above the poor,
For they all are the work of His hands?
20 “In a moment they die, and at midnight
People are shaken and pass away,
And the mighty are taken away without a hand.
21 “For His eyes are upon the ways of a man,
And He sees all his steps.
22 “There is no darkness or deep shadow
Where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves.
23 “For He does not need to consider a man further,
That he should go before God in judgment.
24 “He breaks in pieces mighty men without inquiry,
And sets others in their place.
25 “Therefore He knows their works,
And He overthrows them in the night,
And they are crushed.
26 “He strikes them like the wicked
[f]In a public place,
27 Because they turned aside from following Him,
And had no regard for any of His ways;
28 So that they caused the cry of the poor to come to Him,
And that He might hear the cry of the afflicted—
29 When He keeps quiet, who then can condemn?
And when He hides His face, who then can behold Him,
That is, in regard to both nation and man?—
30 So that godless men would not rule
Nor be snares of the people.
31 “For has anyone said to God,
‘I have borne chastisement;
I will not offend anymore;
32 Teach me what I do not see;
If I have done iniquity,
I will not do it again’?
33 “Shall He recompense on your terms, because you have rejected it?
For you must choose, and not I;
Therefore declare what you know.
34 “Men of understanding will say to me,
And a wise man who hears me,
35 ‘Job speaks without knowledge,
And his words are without wisdom.
36 ‘Job ought to be tried [g]to the limit,
Because he answers like wicked men.
37 ‘For he adds rebellion to his sin;
He claps his hands among us,
And multiplies his words against God.’”
Footnotes:

Job 34:6 Or Although I am right I am accounted a liar
Job 34:6 Lit arrow
Job 34:9 Or takes delight in God
Job 34:11 Lit a man
Job 34:14 Lit set His mind on Himself
Job 34:26 Lit In the place of the ones seeing
Job 34:36 Or to the end

The verses Bart Ehrman skipped.