"The System" - Gov Thread

[iTankz]

I'm curious to here everyone's opinion.

Seems like we have NEET (Not in Education, Employment, or Training ) crying revolution because they want to be a part of the new order.

Then we have WEIRD (Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich and Democratic) saying shut up and consume my goods and make me rich, and we do it.

Then WEIRD continues to shake down the NEET for lunch money.

If your WEIRD your unethical, but rich and a decision maker for everyone. You have money so you can move mountains, everyone wants some.

If your NEET your kind hearted, but have no say, no power and can be silenced by WEIRD's money when you cry transparency. (Which people can't handle in my opinion because they saw killing in Vietnam and spit on soldiers as a result, they were just getting there piece of the pie, right?)

Can you blame people that screw over NEET for money? People need campaign money to become politicians...so u go to WEIRD then owe them a favor later that screws NEET.

Personally, I think we are at natural entropy. We need war to get resources to keep living standards high (2/3 of the world lives on $2 a day). People think war is stupid, and justly so. People will do terrible things for money. People want transparency, but can't handle it when they are too stubborn to realizes someone has to be the bad guy to maintain high living standards(in my opinion)  

[Maddy-Mazey]

Yessss. And also Obama needs to stop sanctioning Russia and take action cool  

[iTankz]

Maddy-Mazey

Yessss. And also Obama needs to stop sanctioning Russia and take action cool

I can't really hate Russia for trying to take Ukraine and Gordon (200 cool ...because our own Manifest Destiny says conquer your neighbors (i.e. War of 1812 and taking of New Mexico), but at the same time its really unfortunate for Ukrainians.  

[Maddy-Mazey]

iTankz

Maddy-Mazey

Yessss. And also Obama needs to stop sanctioning Russia and take action cool

I can't really hate Russia for trying to take Ukraine and Gordon (200 cool ...because our own Manifest Destiny says conquer your neighbors (i.e. War of 1812 and taking of New Mexico), but at the same time its really unfortunate for Ukrainians.

Yeah, man. At least when we take over we try to stay moral. They're just killing everybody D; and forcing them into communism, or trying to of course  

[ThisEmptySoul]

Maddy-Mazey

At least when we take over we try to stay moral. They're just killing everybody D;

You are aware of the steps taken to realize manifest destiny, yes? The near eradication of all native Americans ring a bell? Our own history is far from moral, and while it may be so far away that no one alive today took part in it and few acknowledge it even happened, it still indeed happened. It's questionable if the wars we're in now can really even be called moral since it seems to be more about domination than anything else, not unlike the aspirations of old conquerors such as Julius Ceasar, Napoléon Bonaparte, and Adolf Hitler. They too believed their causes to be just and that they were on a mission for the betterment of all mankind, or at the very least those who fought for them honestly believed that. But the reality of the situation was they were forcing their will on others through senseless violence and slaughter and all they accomplished was devastation to both their own lands and everything they touched.

I also fail to see how the Russia/Ukraine conflict is something we should even be involved in to begin with since it's not our fight. The majority of people don't even really know what's going on over there and just accept tidbits of what they hear about it from whatever source to be fact without actually looking into it themselves. I remember when I first started hearing about the conflict between them over Crimea last year and most people talked about it like Russia just went in and invaded the place. Crimea voted to separate from the Ukraine and Ukraine denied them that while Russia supported them, yet Russia is somehow the bad guy when Ukraine is the one that is trumping the democratic process of Crimea? Isn't our whole justification for the wars going on in the middle east that we're there to spread and defend democracy?

As for the situation we've got going on with our government and class wars is that society in general has a growing sense of entitlement. I'm not exactly sure where it started, but I see it across multiple subjects and aspects of life. More people expect certain goods or services to be provided to them for free or at minimal cost to them via money, time, or labor because they think they have a right to that good or service, as if these things just fall out of the sky. Nevermind the resources it takes to produce them.

Then government reflects this desire to be provided for by implementing new laws and regulations, such as Obama care. People wanted free health care because health care can be expensive, in part because of drug companies overpricing things, but also there's the fact that it takes a lot of time and money to even become a medical practitioner in addition to the fact it's not a job that everyone has the stomach and intellect for. And those medical supplies and equipment still have to come from somewhere. So clearly you can't just expect doctors to provide their services for free to everyone at all times when they had to put so much into getting to a point in which they could provide that service in the first place. The solution they reached was to make everyone pay for insurance, naively believing it would redistribute the wealth and force the rich to help pay for the poor. They ignored the fact that a lot of those who didn't have health insurance didn't have it because they couldn't afford it thus putting on a new fee to those who were already struggling to begin with. Plus, requiring insurance companies to take in high risk clients or those with existing medical conditions made insurance that much more expensive because that means there's more people taking larger amounts out of the pool, meaning more money needs to be taken from all clients in order to keep providing the same level of coverage.

There's also the bleeding heart factor there, where even when people knew it would make insurance more expensive for the majority of people, it at least provided coverage for those who usually couldn't get insurance due to a preexisting condition. But as the saying goes, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." People might mean well by asking for more welfare and free health care and so on, but the means in which they do it harms more people than it helps. There are charities out there that were established to help people with things like food and medical costs and some doctors would volunteer some of their time and services to people in need and it's better to encourage those who have the means to contribute to those charities than indiscriminately take everyone's money by force, especially since a good chunk of those you're forcing to hand over money they can't spare are the exact people you're supposedly trying to help.  

[iTankz]

ThisEmptySoul

Maddy-Mazey

At least when we take over we try to stay moral. They're just killing everybody D;

You are aware of the steps taken to realize manifest destiny, yes? The near eradication of all native Americans ring a bell? Our own history is far from moral, and while it may be so far away that no one alive today took part in it and few acknowledge it even happened, it still indeed happened. It's questionable if the wars we're in now can really even be called moral since it seems to be more about domination than anything else, not unlike the aspirations of old conquerors such as Julius Ceasar, Napoléon Bonaparte, and Adolf Hitler. They too believed their causes to be just and that they were on a mission for the betterment of all mankind, or at the very least those who fought for them honestly believed that. But the reality of the situation was they were forcing their will on others through senseless violence and slaughter and all they accomplished was devastation to both their own lands and everything they touched.

I think I’ll break this up a little for simplicity. I’m not bashing, just trying to maybe cite some references for further pondering. These references of course being how I came to my own opinion or that support my opinion.

I’m not sure the wars are about domination as much as to sustain our lifestyles (U.S. citizens) we need to consumer 25 percent of the world resources, but we only make up about 5 percent of the world’s population. 2/3 of the world lives on 2 dollars a day (I know that’s not me) To do this people need bullied, nationalistic leaders need to be replaced with money hungry ones that will give anyway their countries resources for a quick buck, then simply their economy to be bought not a boots on ground conflict. Quite frankly I would keep my living standard rather than say giving everyone in the world a 4 dollar living standard across the board. I’m aware that is unethical, but that is how I feel at this point and time in life.

Reference for my number examples  

[iTankz]

ThisEmptySoul

Maddy-Mazey

At least when we take over we try to stay moral. They're just killing everybody D;

I also fail to see how the Russia/Ukraine conflict is something we should even be involved in to begin with since it's not our fight. The majority of people don't even really know what's going on over there and just accept tidbits of what they hear about it from whatever source to be fact without actually looking into it themselves. I remember when I first started hearing about the conflict between them over Crimea last year and most people talked about it like Russia just went in and invaded the place. Crimea voted to separate from the Ukraine and Ukraine denied them that while Russia supported them, yet Russia is somehow the bad guy when Ukraine is the one that is trumping the democratic process of Crimea? Isn't our whole justification for the wars going on in the middle east that we're there to spread and defend democracy?

I self-admitted am not too educated on the subject, but what I know to be true is this.
1) Russia tried similar things with Georgia in 2008, U.S. covertly stopped them
2) Russia sent “unmarked rebels” to start boarder skirmish to justify invading to the world to not face sanctions
3) They did the same with Ukraine (sent unmarked rebels) then later admitted they were Russian after saying it wasn’t them…..they know they are wrong….
4) Russian said the Crimea was always theirs (why the rebels then) and said there are pro-Russian people there Russia needs to defend them from….wait defend them from unmarked rebels…..
5) Russia took over Ukrainian military bases in Crimea
6) Crimea is a strategic hub for supplies that can be manipulated at Ukraine’s expense
7) Ukraine wants to be part of the U.N. (not communism) and Russia is communism. I see what your saying, but they are defending democracy
8 ) Russia silences all nay sayers (recently killed 2 high profile critics outside the Kremlin, Kremlin = Russian white house) if there was a vote I don’t believe the number were real and if so why the rebels will the lies.

I'm not attacking you, just playing devils advocate
Timeline  

[Maddy-Mazey]

iTankz

ThisEmptySoul

Maddy-Mazey

At least when we take over we try to stay moral. They're just killing everybody D;

I also fail to see how the Russia/Ukraine conflict is something we should even be involved in to begin with since it's not our fight. The majority of people don't even really know what's going on over there and just accept tidbits of what they hear about it from whatever source to be fact without actually looking into it themselves. I remember when I first started hearing about the conflict between them over Crimea last year and most people talked about it like Russia just went in and invaded the place. Crimea voted to separate from the Ukraine and Ukraine denied them that while Russia supported them, yet Russia is somehow the bad guy when Ukraine is the one that is trumping the democratic process of Crimea? Isn't our whole justification for the wars going on in the middle east that we're there to spread and defend democracy?

I self-admitted am not too educated on the subject, but what I know to be true is this.
1) Russia tried similar things with Georgia in 2008, U.S. covertly stopped them
2) Russia sent “unmarked rebels” to start boarder skirmish to justify invading to the world to not face sanctions
3) They did the same with Ukraine (sent unmarked rebels) then later admitted they were Russian after saying it wasn’t them…..they know they are wrong….
4) Russian said the Crimea was always theirs (why the rebels then) and said there are pro-Russian people there Russia needs to defend them from….wait defend them from unmarked rebels…..
5) Russia took over Ukrainian military bases in Crimea
6) Crimea is a strategic hub for supplies that can be manipulated at Ukraine’s expense
7) Ukraine wants to be part of the U.N. (not communism) and Russia is communism. I see what your saying, but they are defending democracy
8 ) Russia silences all nay sayers (recently killed 2 high profile critics outside the Kremlin, Kremlin = Russian white house) if there was a vote I don’t believe the number were real and if so why the rebels with the lies.

I'm not attacking you, just playing devils advocate
Timeline

Gonna hop on to say that's mine and my Fiance's opinions as well, basically exact same as iTankz^ cx But I also very much wish to agree to disagree, or just even discuss, rather then start some weird conflict c: I definitely respect the views you have, And to be honest I'm always ashamed of what we did to the Native Americans, but in my eyes creating democracy over communism is the better of two evils, whenever we are rightly involved, anyway. sweatdrop  

[ThisEmptySoul]

No need to walk on eggshells in replying. This isn't my first debate and it certainly won't be my last. One of the great things about debate is being able to see other people's opinions, why they have them, and you may even learn something new about the subject being discussed, even if it doesn't change your opinion.

That being said, I haven't had motivation to sort through all the information to make an educated reply myself yet, but I will. I'd rather actually look into it and educate myself more on it than simply continuing to respond from my perspective without much actual knowledge about it.  

[iTankz]

ThisEmptySoul

No need to walk on eggshells in replying. This isn't my first debate and it certainly won't be my last. One of the great things about debate is being able to see other people's opinions, why they have them, and you may even learn something new about the subject being discussed, even if it doesn't change your opinion.

That being said, I haven't had motivation to sort through all the information to make an educated reply myself yet, but I will. I'd rather actually look into it and educate myself more on it than simply continuing to respond from my perspective without much actual knowledge about it.

You are a wise man =] I like your approach