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 Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:42 pm
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Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:46 pm
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Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:24 am
So far so good. :P
I'm unsure of what Mr. Brooks tried to imply on one point: after Bannister gave a brief history on Muhammad, Brooks re-emphasized the shift that happens in Muhammad from spiritual leader to political figure, and thus affecting the Quran in that it provided the fodder for the Medina passages in support of defensive and offensive battle. Ergo, that shift in Muhammad's life is the reason why there is a notable shift in the text of the Quran.
If he intends to use that as one of the evidences that Islam is wrong or that distinguishes it from Christanity, we may have a problem in the reasoning there (considering that we have a similar thing going on with Jesus: Jesus goes from "Rabbi"/teacher, Son of God in the gospels [thus spiritual leader] to King, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the one unleashing wrath on the unrepentant, opening seals that incite war on earth, Jesus himself waging war alongside with his holy ones against the Beast, in the book of Revelation [thus political leader inciting violence directly and inciting the people of the earth to fight because of his authority as king now]). "Violence against the unrepentant", in and of itself, is not contrary to Jesus. So, I'm not sure WHERE he wanted our minds to go when he drew attention back to this. When the Book of Revelation says the dragon wages war on us, I'm sure that includes spiritual warfare, but is it limited to merely destroying arguments with words...? and does Jesus intend for us to hide...or fight defensively and offensively?
Revelation 12:17 (NIV)
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.
Waging war, in a spiritual sense, obviously. But—under the ministry of reconciliation—is it wrong for Israel to wage war defensively and offensively if it's religiously motivated? like fighting against the beast who demands worship (not to convert, but simply to annihilate the beast's idolatrous religion)? When I say Israel, I'm referring to both the nation (which the world calls "Israel") and the set-apart people of God who spiritually belong to Israel, who keep the commands of God and have faith in Jesus.
Is that tactic only found in the Old Testament? is Jesus not using that driving-out-the-Canaanites tactic at all in the Book of Revelation (not a rhetorical question; but genuinely asking, is Jesus not using violent means at the hands of his believers to defeat the worship of the Beast, which is all kinds of idolatrous, the mother of harlots)?
I could argue that from the Old Testament to the Gospels we see a shift from political to spiritual—"political" (Israelite kings conquering lands through war, operating on the commands of God) to "spiritual" (the thoughts of the heart defiling a person) if I emphasize a few verses. But then, with the epistles and the Book of Revelation, back to political & spiritual combined.
So, that emphasis that Mr. Brooks made (from spiritual to political, thus waging defensive and offensive battle) will need clarification. Because if he's using it as distinction between Christianity and Islam, I don't see it. I guess I'll just have to wait and see what he and the other speakers say in the rest of the conference.
But overall, enriching overview.
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Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 2:31 pm
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Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:37 pm
edited to correct typo's This session had what I hate most: indirect attacks on scripture.Forgetting
@24:38 Andy Bannister says,
So what's the problem in Islam? Well, the problem between man and God in Islam is basically that mankind is forgetful—and so, God expects us to behave a certain way, we are forgetful, we don't do that and so, therefore, what's the solution? If the problem is forgetfulness and not having the right moral information, then of course salvation looks like a reminder of God's commands and indeed more commands. And so that is the Islamic salvation narrative.
Not just Islam.
“Forgetting” is a problem that YHWH accuses us (his set-apart nation) of doing and that he commands us not to fall into. Forgetting is not just a mere "oops, what does the command say?" It's a rejection of his ways, and rebellion. Developing a trusting relationship with God is not “new” to the New Testament.
Deuteronomy 4:9-10 (NIV)
9 Only be careful, and watch yourselves closely so that you do not forget the things your eyes have seen or let them fade from your heart as long as you live. Teach them to your children and to their children after them. 10 Remember the day you stood before the Lord your God at Horeb, when he said to me, “Assemble the people before me to hear my words so that they may learn to revere me as long as they live in the land and may teach them to their children.”
Psalm 78:5-8 (NIV)
5 He decreed statutes for Jacob
and established the law in Israel,
which he commanded our ancestors
to teach their children,
6 so the next generation would know them,
even the children yet to be born,
and they in turn would tell their children.
7 Then they would put their trust in God
and would not forget his deeds
but would keep his commands.
8 They would not be like their ancestors—
a stubborn and rebellious generation,
whose hearts were not loyal to God,
whose spirits were not faithful to him.
Psalm 50:22 (NIV)
22 “Consider this, you who forget God, or I will tear you to pieces, with no one to rescue you:
Jeremiah 2:32 (NIV)
32 Does a young woman forget her jewelry,
a bride her wedding ornaments?
Yet my people have forgotten me,
days without number.
Jeremiah 3:21 (NIV)
21 A cry is heard on the barren heights,
the weeping and pleading of the people of Israel,
because they have perverted their ways
and have forgotten the Lord their God.
Isaiah 17:10-11 (NIV)
10 You have forgotten God your Savior;
you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.
Therefore, though you set out the finest plants
and plant imported vines,
11 though on the day you set them out, you make them grow,
and on the morning when you plant them, you bring them to bud,
yet the harvest will be as nothing
in the day of disease and incurable pain.
Deuteronomy 8:11 (NIV)
11 Be careful that you do not forget the Lord your God, failing to observe his commands, his laws and his decrees that I am giving you this day.
...and he's providing the solution to this forgetfulness by giving us the Holy Spirit.
John 14:26 (NIV)
26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you
1 John 3:24 (NIV)
24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
Ezekiel 36:27 (NIV)
27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
Romans 7:14 (NIV)
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.
Galatians 5:24-25 (NIV)
24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
Romans 8:7-9 (NIV)
7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
The Holy Spirit is the One who brings to remembrance the words of Jesus and the Law of God. He is the One who motivates us to keep God's commands (not like demonic possession where you're doing things against your will; you can grieve the Holy Spirit, act against his voice, and quench him). Our problem is our flesh, the sinful nature we are born with, that is hostile to God's commands.
For argument's sake, let's say Andy Bannister is representative of Christianity (not necessarily the bible, but Christianity) and the above statement he made (summarizing the Islamic salvation narrative) is actually representative of Islam, then this is the problem between Islam and Christianity: the Christian “teachers of the law” are only espousing 50% of the answer (we're born in original sin and need a solution for that sinful nature; the solution was brought about by Jesus through his death, resurrection and ascension—thus atoning for our sins and coming to dwell inside of us as the Holy Spirit so we can put the misdeeds of the body to death). Islam is telling this Christian theologian, “man's problem is 'forgetting'”. The bible supports that the Holy Spirit is there to remind us of his law and sayings—so that we don't forget, thus don't reject his way or walk contrary to his way, which is in opposition to the flesh. At the same time though, Islam, despite reminding us that forgetting is the problem (lol), is also ignoring the 50% that Christians are emphasizing: why the nature we're born with is a problem to begin with (because there's original sin).
The Quran itself, as was said in this video, empirically supports the notion of original sin (Adam and Eve were kicked out of paradise according to the Quran). Though Muslims philosophically reject this notion, it is there. The bible empirically supports the notion that part of our problem is forgetting. Though the Christian theologian in this video philosophically rejects this [that forgetting is a part of man's problem], there is empirical evidence of this truth in scripture).
In short, they're both 50% wrong and the bible is 100% right.
Continuing, because there's more:Gnostic
@25:30 Andy Bannister says,
Islam, in many of the ways it functions, is basically "gnostic" in its theology. Gnosticism was a heresy that arose at the time of the early church that basically said that what saves you is knowledge, you need the right knowledge; the right mystical knowledge is what will save you. And that's basically what Islam says.
This is unstable to say.
To call Islam “gnostic” for saying we need the correct knowledge is to call the Old Testament (and the New Testament) “gnostic” for saying the exact same thing ( emotion_sweatdrop ).
Hosea 4:6 (NIV)
6 my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.
“Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also reject you as my priests;
because you have ignored the law of your God,
I also will ignore your children.
Isaiah 5:13 (NIV)
13 Therefore my people will go into exile
for lack of understanding;
those of high rank will die of hunger
and the common people will be parched with thirst.
1 Timothy 4:16 (NIV)
16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
The God of the bible and his disciples do say that the right knowledge saves you. They're not gnostic. Neither the Old Testament, neither the New Testament, neither Islam. This is an unfair allegation against Islam which indirectly attacks the truth statements of Scripture. Islam is not a self-realization, “find-the-gnosis-within-you,” religion. They accept the knowledge that came from the Most High God, information that came from outside of themselves—although, as was suggested in the first session, the Quran is more like, “the Judeo-Christian ideas floating around in Arabia during Muhammad's time mixed in with whatever supernatural experiences Muhammad went through”. Favor@25:06 Andy Bannister says,
that we need moral information, we need moral commandments, that we can keep, we have the power to do so, and by so doing, you could earn your way into God's favor. And yes, as Abdu shared, Allah is arbitrary, Allah is ultimate decision, but a big part of that decision is factored upon how you behave as a human being.
Considering the Quran is so vague, why are they not treating those surahs in the same way as the bible when it talks about "how you behave as a human being", being a factor?
2 Samuel 22:21 (NIV)
21 “The Lord has dealt with me according to my righteousness;
according to the cleanness of my hands he has rewarded me.
Psalm 18:20 (NIV)
20 The Lord has dealt with me according to my righteousness;
according to the cleanness of my hands he has rewarded me.
Matthew 25:34-40 (NIV)
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
Note on “brother and sister”:
Matthew 12:50 (NIV)
50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
God may show favor to the unrighteous, like sending rain on them just as much as the righteous. However, we cannot ignore the verses that say God shows favor to those who love him, obey him, ergo humble themselves under him and not to others. Thus there is biblical support for whatever Islam is saying on this point: that God's decision to show favor is factored upon how you behave as a human being.
Exodus 20:5-6 (NIV)
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
John 15:9-10 (NIV)
9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.
John 14:15 (NIV)
15 “If you love me, keep my commands.
James 4:6 (NIV)
6 But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says:
“God opposes the proud
but shows favor to the humble.”[a]
Footnotes:
a. James 4:6 Prov. 3:34
Exodus 10:3 (NIV)
3 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said to him, “This is what the Lord, the God of the Hebrews, says: ‘How long will you refuse to humble yourself before me? Let my people go, so that they may worship me.
cristobela: [and, as we all know, Pharaoh did not receive favor; he wasn't humble]
Deuteronomy 8:2 (NIV)
2 Remember how the Lord your God led you all the way in the wilderness these forty years, to humble and test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commands.
2 Chronicles 7:14 (NIV)
14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
2 Chronicles 36:12 (NIV)
12 He did evil in the eyes of the Lord his God and did not humble himself before Jeremiah the prophet, who spoke the word of the Lord.
2 Kings 17:13 (NIV)
13 The Lord warned Israel and Judah through all his prophets and seers: “Turn from your evil ways. Observe my commands and decrees, in accordance with the entire Law that I commanded your ancestors to obey and that I delivered to you through my servants the prophets.”
Isaiah 66:2 (NIV)
2 Has not my hand made all these things,
and so they came into being?”
declares the Lord.
“These are the ones I look on with favor:
those who are humble and contrite in spirit,
and who tremble at my word.
Love God = obey God = turn away from wicked ways = turn away from evil = turn away from disobedience = you tremble at the word of God = you're humble before God, they all mean the same thing. The opposite of humble is arrogant:
Nehemiah 9:29 (NIV)
29 “You warned them in order to turn them back to your law, but they became arrogant and disobeyed your commands. They sinned against your ordinances, of which you said, ‘The person who obeys them will live by them.’ Stubbornly they turned their backs on you, became stiff-necked and refused to listen.
Isaiah 5:15 (NIV)
15 So people will be brought low
and everyone humbled,
the eyes of the arrogant humbled.
Love me, keep my commands (obey me); who is the kind of person who does this? The one who is humble in spirit, who walks humbly with their God. Who receives God's favor? The humble. Favor can be earned based on what you do. It is a lie to imply that scripture says otherwise. It is only theologians who say favor cannot be earned. But the word of God is clear that you can.
Proverbs 3:3-4 (NIV)
3 Let love and faithfulness never leave you;
bind them around your neck,
write them on the tablet of your heart.
4 Then you will win favor and a good name
in the sight of God and man. Mercy@35:20, Abdu Murray says,
”So in a sense, 'God is love' in one sense in the Quran—now, it's 'conditional love' and his mercy is conditional as well because almost every single time you see the Quran say, 'God is oft forgiving and most merciful' it's either followed up by or it follows up a statement about how you earn his mercy; he's merciful to the righteous, he's merciful to the repentant, he is merciful to the obedient, he is merciful to those who do good works, and take care of the widows, and take care of the poor.
I'm pretty sure the only ones throwing that term (“unconditional love”) at the God of the bible, are theologians—and those believers who are puffed up by the leaven / teaching of those theologians. Even the act of favor that saves us—the act of generosity that was not dependent on anything we did—the atonement sacrifice, has conditions: believe in the Son of God (Jesus). And remain in that belief.
John 3:17-18 (NIV)
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Romans 11:17-22 (NIV)
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
And if he means that Islam lacks a God like the one in the bible who unconditionally sends rain upon, not just the righteous, but on the wicked too, Islam does have this God.
Surah 6:6 SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
Have they not seen how many generations We destroyed before them which We had established upon the earth as We have not established you? And We sent [rain from] the sky upon them in showers and made rivers flow beneath them; then We destroyed them for their sins and brought forth after them a generation of others.
These wicked sinners enjoyed lots of rain. razz
@35:50 Abdu Murray says,
“Isn't it interesting that you have to earn his mercy”.
This is also an indirect attack on scripture because there are verses in the bible where people, whom scripture calls righteous, explicitly state: I should get mercy because of something I did or demonstrated.
Nehemiah 13:22 (NIV)
22 Then I commanded the Levites to purify themselves and go and guard the gates in order to keep the Sabbath day holy. Remember me for this also, my God, and show mercy to me according to your great love.
Psalm 57:1 (NIV)
Psalm 57[a]
For the director of music. To the tune of “Do Not Destroy.” Of David. A miktam.[b]When he had fled from Saul into the cave.
1 Have mercy on me, my God, have mercy on me,
for in you I take refuge.
I will take refuge in the shadow of your wings
until the disaster has passed.
Footnotes:
a. Psalm 57:1 In Hebrew texts 57:1-11 is numbered 57:2-12.
b. Psalm 57:1 Title: Probably a literary or musical term
Psalm 86:16 (NIV)
16 Turn to me and have mercy on me;
show your strength in behalf of your servant;
save me, because I serve you
just as my mother did.
Psalm 119:132 (NIV)
132 Turn to me and have mercy on me,
as you always do to those who love your name.
Proverbs 28:13 (NIV)
13 Whoever conceals their sins does not prosper,
but the one who confesses and renounces them finds mercy.
Isaiah 55:7 (NIV)
7 Let the wicked forsake their ways
and the unrighteous their thoughts.
Let them turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on them,
and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
Matthew 5:7 (NIV)
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
So, God shows mercy to those who repent / those who turn from wicked ways. God shows mercy to those who love him (to those who obey him). God shows mercy to those who trust in him (take refuge in him and in his words, believe what he said). God shows mercy to those who show mercy: you reap what you sow, get a taste of your own medicine, good or bad.
Ergo,
Job 34:11 (NIV)
11 He repays everyone for what they have done; he brings on them what their conduct deserves.
Proverbs 13:21 (NIV)
21 Trouble pursues the sinner, but the righteous are rewarded with good things.
Romans 2:5-8 (NIV)
5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
Footnotes:
a. Romans 2:6 Psalm 62:12; Prov. 24:12
The speakers in this video are over-emphasizing one biblical truth (that God shows mercy to the unrighteous) in their attempts to make a distinction between the God of the bible and what Islam/the Quran says about God's nature (but in doing so they negate other Old and New Testament passages that agree with the very statement in the Quran that they're calling a lie and/or different from our God).
This truth is what they're over-inflating:
Daniel 9:18 (NIV)
18 Give ear, our God, and hear; open your eyes and see the desolation of the city that bears your Name. We do not make requests of you because we are righteous, but because of your great mercy.
Ecclesiastes 7:20 (NIV)
20 Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous,
no one who does what is right and never sins.
Psalm 143:2 (NIV)
2 Do not bring your servant into judgment,
for no one living is righteous before you.
Like was said in the video (I think by Bannister), Islam also believes that not even an amoeba would be left if God judged us in the way we deserved. Ergo it is because of his mercy that anyone gets saved because we have all sinned.
Islam is not in disagreement on this topic. And neither is the bible. Only the theologians' reasoning.
By the same token however, like I said previously, there are also verses in the bible that say mercy was earned by repentance, by trust in God, by serving God. We can't make accusations against Islam that nullifies what scripture says. Islam and the bible are not communicating contradicting thoughts on this topic. The ones contradicting the truth / reality here are the Christian theologians in this video (at least over this topic of neither favor nor mercy being won by what a person does; they can be).
@ 35:52, Abdu Murray says,
“That is oxymoronic. Because mercy by definition is that which you cannot earn."
That is an erroneous definition, not biblical whatsoever.
The definition of mercy, based on how it is used in scripture, can be put like this: “deserved wrath/punishment that has been withheld OR relented”. The definition has no room for the word “earned” based on the above passages where I showed that if you repented, if you trusted / believed the message, if you serve God, you can win mercy. What we can say, biblically, is that the opposite of mercy is punishment:
Psalm 59:5 (NIV)
5 You, Lord God Almighty,
you who are the God of Israel,
rouse yourself to punish all the nations;
show no mercy to wicked traitors.[a]
Footnotes:
a. Psalm 59:5 The Hebrew has Selah (a word of uncertain meaning) here and at the end of verse 13.
Habakkuk 3:2 (NIV)
2 Lord, I have heard of your fame;
I stand in awe of your deeds, Lord.
Repeat them in our day,
in our time make them known;
in wrath remember mercy.
And he can (and does) relent of his wrath/punishment (has mercy) when:
1. He feels compassion on his creations:
Deuteronomy 32:36 (NIV)
36 The Lord will vindicate his people
and relent concerning his servants
when he sees their strength is gone
and no one is left, slave or free.[a]
Footnotes:
a. Deuteronomy 32:36 Or and they are without a ruler or leader
2. His creations responded correctly (with repentance) at the threat of punishment (so punishment was witheld) or while under the punishment (thus God relenting of punishment when they repented):
Jeremiah 26:3 (NIV)
3 Perhaps they will listen and each will turn from their evil ways. Then I will relent and not inflict on them the disaster I was planning because of the evil they have done.
Psalm 106:43-45 (NIV)
43 Many times he delivered them,
but they were bent on rebellion
and they wasted away in their sin.
44 Yet he took note of their distress
when he heard their cry;
45 for their sake he remembered his covenant
and out of his great love he relented.
3. When someone prayed at the threat of punishment or in the midst of the punishment:
Exodus 32:12-14 (NIV)
12 Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth’? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: ‘I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.’” 14 Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.
2 Samuel 24:25 (NIV)
25 David built an altar to the Lord there and sacrificed burnt offerings and fellowship offerings. Then the Lord answered his prayer in behalf of the land, and the plague on Israel was stopped.
They did ____, mercy granted.
If he's going to call that “earning mercy”, fine. That's only a problem with the theological house he's building on a foundation of sand, because the Word does not agree with the notion that you can't "earn mercy".Christian Assurance vs. Muslim Ambivalence @29:25 Andy Bannister says,
“So not merely, as a Muslim, do you not have assurance here and now; you do not have assurance in the hereafter either”
I agree somewhat. The only assurance they have is that there will be a resurrection.
But doesn't that make them like Job, then...?
Because Job says,
Job 14:10-12 (NIV)
10 But a man dies and is laid low;
he breathes his last and is no more.
11 As the water of a lake dries up
or a riverbed becomes parched and dry,
12 so he lies down and does not rise;
till the heavens are no more, people will not awake
or be roused from their sleep.
That puts Job in the second resurrection (not the first) and the second resurrection is the one that is subject to the lake of fire / second death.
Revelation 20:11-15 (NIV)
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
What I don't understand is why Job has assurance—he is so sure that he will receive the forgiveness of his sins at his resurrection—while the Muslims do not have assurance / are not so sure they will be forgiven? Is it merely because the Quran omits these sayings? No one bothered to speak the book of Job to Arabia? Or some other “thoughts”, not scriptural at all, just got added to the Quran? Because, afterall, as the overview suggested, the thoughts floating around in Arabia at the time, weren't written down for a while, it was an oral culture. But Job definitely has assurance:
Job 14:13-17 (NIV)
13 “If only you would hide me in the grave
and conceal me till your anger has passed!
If only you would set me a time
and then remember me!
14 If someone dies, will they live again?
All the days of my hard service
I will wait for my renewal[a] to come.
15 You will call and I will answer you;
you will long for the creature your hands have made.
16 Surely then you will count my steps
but not keep track of my sin.
17 My offenses will be sealed up in a bag;
you will cover over my sin.
Footnotes:
a. Job 14:14 Or release
Or is it just another case of Islam philosophically saying one thing, but the Quran saying something else? Because to me, the following sounds like the same kind of assurance that Job had:
Surah 39:53 SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."
On what basis is Job so sure that his sins will be forgiven...? I would say Job's assurance came from a conviction based on the type of life he lived, his behavior (what these theologians have against Islam, right?):
Job 33:9 (NIV)
9 ‘I am pure, I have done no wrong;
I am clean and free from sin.
He doesn't commit adultery (even in New Testament ways), he doesn't lie, he doesn't pervert justice, he doesn't neglect the needs of the poor, of the widows, of the orphans, he doesn't trust in money, he doesn't worship other things that aren't God, he doesn't gloat over his enemy, doesn't withhold payment from his employees, he doesn't fail to show hospitality to strangers, he doesn't conceal his sins but confesses them.
Job 31 (NIV)
31 “I made a covenant with my eyes
not to look lustfully at a young woman.
2 For what is our lot from God above,
our heritage from the Almighty on high?
3 Is it not ruin for the wicked,
disaster for those who do wrong?
4 Does he not see my ways
and count my every step?
5 “If I have walked with falsehood
or my foot has hurried after deceit—
6 let God weigh me in honest scales
and he will know that I am blameless—
7 if my steps have turned from the path,
if my heart has been led by my eyes,
or if my hands have been defiled,
8 then may others eat what I have sown,
and may my crops be uprooted.
9 “If my heart has been enticed by a woman,
or if I have lurked at my neighbor’s door,
10 then may my wife grind another man’s grain,
and may other men sleep with her.
11 For that would have been wicked,
a sin to be judged.
12 It is a fire that burns to Destruction[a];
it would have uprooted my harvest.
13 “If I have denied justice to any of my servants,
whether male or female,
when they had a grievance against me,
14 what will I do when God confronts me?
What will I answer when called to account?
15 Did not he who made me in the womb make them?
Did not the same one form us both within our mothers?
16 “If I have denied the desires of the poor
or let the eyes of the widow grow weary,
17 if I have kept my bread to myself,
not sharing it with the fatherless—
18 but from my youth I reared them as a father would,
and from my birth I guided the widow—
19 if I have seen anyone perishing for lack of clothing,
or the needy without garments,
20 and their hearts did not bless me
for warming them with the fleece from my sheep,
21 if I have raised my hand against the fatherless,
knowing that I had influence in court,
22 then let my arm fall from the shoulder,
let it be broken off at the joint.
23 For I dreaded destruction from God,
and for fear of his splendor I could not do such things.
24 “If I have put my trust in gold
or said to pure gold, ‘You are my security,’
25 if I have rejoiced over my great wealth,
the fortune my hands had gained,
26 if I have regarded the sun in its radiance
or the moon moving in splendor,
27 so that my heart was secretly enticed
and my hand offered them a kiss of homage,
28 then these also would be sins to be judged,
for I would have been unfaithful to God on high.
29 “If I have rejoiced at my enemy’s misfortune
or gloated over the trouble that came to him—
30 I have not allowed my mouth to sin
by invoking a curse against their life—
31 if those of my household have never said,
‘Who has not been filled with Job’s meat?’—
32 but no stranger had to spend the night in the street,
for my door was always open to the traveler—
33 if I have concealed my sin as people do,[b]
by hiding my guilt in my heart
34 because I so feared the crowd
and so dreaded the contempt of the clans
that I kept silent and would not go outside—
35 (“Oh, that I had someone to hear me!
I sign now my defense—let the Almighty answer me;
let my accuser put his indictment in writing.
36 Surely I would wear it on my shoulder,
I would put it on like a crown.
37 I would give him an account of my every step;
I would present it to him as to a ruler.)—
38 “if my land cries out against me
and all its furrows are wet with tears,
39 if I have devoured its yield without payment
or broken the spirit of its tenants,
40 then let briers come up instead of wheat
and stinkweed instead of barley.”
The words of Job are ended.
Footnotes:
a. Job 31:12 Hebrew Abaddon
b. Job 31:33 Or as Adam did
This guy has the heart of Jesus.
That's why he has assurance.
Job one ups the rich young ruler / the rich young man:
Mark 10:17-21 (NIV)
17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’[a]”
20 “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”
21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
Footnotes:
a. Mark 10:19 Exodus 20:12-16; Deut. 5:16-20
Money is not an issue for Job.
Job's assurance is based on his own sinless behavior, but also, somehow, he knows God will forgive his sins ergo he is not sinless (@_@) ?!?!? That's so Quran (and Bible, because that's what I'm quoting). Are we going to attack Job and call him a Muslim...? >_> That would be unstable. But Job's kind of thought/thinking is exactly what these theologians are trying to debunk and say is totally at odds with Jesus and/or the scriptures: to be assured by your behavior that you will be forgiven / receive mercy. The righteous will inherit the kingdom because they fed and clothed his brothers and sisters (anyone doing the will of the Father). Mt 25:34-40; Mt 12:50. That's behavior-based too. SanctificationI don't disagree completely, but I think Bannister took his statements a little too far.
@30:05-16 Andy Bannister says,
We believe, as Christians, that when you become a Christian, when you put your faith in Christ, God fills you with his Spirit at that moment and begins that process of regenerating you into the likeness of Christ. He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion.
Yes, God is faithful, but man is not. People can share in the Holy Spirit but then fall away.
Hebrews 6:4-8 (NIV)
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
Footnotes:
a. Hebrews 6:6 Or age, 6 if they fall
Those who produced thorns also received the Holy Spirit. But they became worthless and fruitless. Those who keep the flame burning are the ones who make it.
2 Timothy 1:6-7 (NIV)
6 For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands. 7 For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.
1 Thessalonians 5:19 (NIV)
19 Do not quench the Spirit.
Bannister makes it sound like sanctification (being set-apart and molded by God into another creation, restored to his image) has no chance of failure. It does, but that failure has all to do with man, not God. He stays faithful. Man doesn't. Those who are adulteresses, unfaithful, who harden their heart after it has been softened, who trample the blood of Jesus underfoot and insult the Spirit of Grace (the Holy Spirit), consider your sanctification aborted. He will fight you if you become his enemy despite having done you a favor when you were his enemy. Choosing enmity towards God, after receiving the truth, is worse.
Ephesians 4:30 (NIV)
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Isaiah 63:10 (NIV)
10 Yet they rebelled
and grieved his Holy Spirit.
So he turned and became their enemy
and he himself fought against them.
Revelation 2:16 (NIV)
16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
17 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it.
I love the reference to manna here because it links to Isaiah 63:10, where the Holy Spirit is fighting against the the assembly of God's people, in that this describes the wilderness wanderings. And it was during the wilderness wanderings that God rained down manna from heaven.
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I think that's all that stood out to me. I underestimated just how long this would look like fully laid out in a post, lol. The joys of having to articulate your thoughts. :P
That said, I'm thinking the whole veneration of Muhammad, to the point that he even supercedes Christ, is just more evidence that Islam is anti-christ. They're denying that Jesus is the Son of God (but treat Muhammad with the veneration God deserves). And Surah 112 suggesting God doesn't beget and is not begotten is pretty clear.
My conclusion on the matter—so far—is that the only difference between Islam and Christianity, a difference where we cannot possibly say, “well, okay, I see how that is supported by either of the Testaments, the Old Testament or New Testament, or both) is: the identity of Jesus, the Godhead. The New Testament and Old Testament are at odds with the Quran on this point in a way that is not vague at all. Jesus is God's monogenes uniquely begotten Son, the offering for sin. Jesus is Lord, Savior, Son of God, Lamb of God, the atonement sacrifice (died—killed as a sin offering—died by crucifixion and raised to life on the third day as the Old Testament foretold). The Quran is pretty explicit with this disagreement. That should be the focus really—Jesus the Son of God, Lamb of God, Word of God made flesh. Many of the other “differences” are just ignorance of verses found in the Old Testament and New Testament (and the Quran itself at times, from both sides: Muslims and Christians i.e. the Quran containing empirical evidence of the original sin even if the religion of Islam / their theologians refuse to accept this).
I see you posted part 3...that will have to wait lol.
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