Curses and Healing

[midara the happy banshee]

Posted in another guild a while ago. Sorry for those seeing it twice:

I was recently looking back through past threads and came upon a curse thread, and it got me thinking.
Most of the people in the thread who felt strongly against curses felt that it was not their place to judge others and cause them harm. But then I thought, what about healing? I would venture a guess that most pagans have no moral code against healing. But why? Why is it that someone could judge someone worthy of life and happiness but not of harm? Aren't these things two sides of the same coin? And going even further, doesn't all magic stem from the practicioner's judgement? Is it that the practicioner feels that they may trust their judgement in nudging and shaping the universe except for when it comes to harming others? Why is a curse any harder to make a judgement about than healing?
I'd really love to hear opinions on this, and to get a better grasp of everyone's morality.  

[The Bookwyrm]

Well, so far as morality goes in magic, I dislike the thought of infringing upon another person's free will; before I perform any sort of magic on or for a person, I make certain to obtain that's person's consent. No consent, no spell. Since I'm unlikely to ever get consent to curse anyone, I can't see why a moment of anger on my part justifies me in harming another person.

Many people have a heavy Wiccan influence, and neglect to recognize, especially when they're young or new to WitchCraft especially, that the "Harm ye none" rule only applies to Wicca. That they take that moral high road I think is commendable; action begets like action, or you can call ir karma or the Law of Return. I've seen it work often enough to be leary in my own casting.

Whether a person is willing to cast curses or not depends greatly on their sense of morals; whether they believe it is their right and priviledge to pass judgement on another person and carry out sentence or not. I certainly don't question my ability to judge a person or their actions as mean, cruel or harmful; what I call into question is what gives me the right to decide what their punishment should be. If I'm closely connected to the situation, there's a very strong possibility that I will react emotionally rather than rationally and that's not fair. Not to me, and not to the person I've taken action against. It happens to everyone: Someone or a group of someones does something, and at the time it seems horrible and earth shattering; maybe you've been dumped, maybe a friend has proved false, or perhaps you've finally removed yourself from an abusive reltationship. Over time, however, the strong emotional reaction fades, and those same people you've wanted to see horrible things happen to you will feel pitty for, or simply appathy. Does the fact that I may have potentially over reacted give me the right to harm a person?

That said, why should I stop with magic? If my judgement is sufficient to unleash metaphysical powers on a person, whether they can defend themselves against it or not, it should be sufficient in mundane matters. But it isn't; I don't walk down the street shooting murderers, sexual offenders, or other violent criminals. By doing so, I lower myself to their level under the pretense of my own self rightiousness, and I ignore the system that's been put into place to enforce justice. I happen to believe that there's a similar system, although not nearly so complex, in place over the universe as a whole. I believe that someday, one way or another, people get what they deserve, so why should I bother to dirty my hands?

I believe that Ghandi was really onto something when he said "An eye for an eye will make the world blind."  

[Quadadiddle]

I just find round-a-bout ways of doing both. For healing I focus on them getting the strength and health that they already want. And for cursing, I focus on any extra energy I've built up on speeding up karma for a person. The actual term for that I use is "Catalystic Karma" and I pretty much use it everytime someone really needs to hurry up nd get whats coming.


And if karma seems to be slacking a bit, I'll end up saying "screw it" and using mundane resources to get them back. Not often, but we all have our boiling points.  

[Starlock]

It seems that a great many Neopagans are a bit too in love with the notion of free will. To the point that they forget that a large degree of our actions are in reality guided by factors external to ourselves (that's something one picks up in social psychology if one has the chance to take such coursework in college). So to me in many ways, the whole idea of 'free will infringement' is slightly absurd, because we all influence or 'infringe' everything around us regardless of whether or not we want to or are conscious of it. It is a bit irresponsible to disregard the fact that one is always influencing the world around oneself... quite a few nowadays, Neopagan or otherwise, seem to have this problem.

So be it healing or harming, it's a conscious form of influence rather than one which is done without the person's knowledge. I have no issue with either, by their nature. More important to consider consequences... both of influences you directly intend like spellwork AND (perhaps more importantly) of the influence you have on others every moment of every day. How you consider consequences and see the sittuation will depend on your moral and ethical framework. I wouldn't say either is bad on the basis of 'interference of free will' as the whole notion of free will is a debatable point to begin with.

Personally, I don't tend to do any spellwork on humans without their consent. That's more out of aversion to potential unforseen consequences than any wish to preserve their suppposed free will, however. Most of what I do focuses on me, but I'm not so naive as to suppose that a spell on myself does not affect others around me... because there's no question in my mind that it will. Consequences, consequences!  

[Azana Brown]

I usually only help people if they ask or if I know them well enough and know that they'd want it. I've never myself cursed anyone, but I did give a curse spell to someone else to use, but that was an extreme circumstance. I don't know; I just kind of have a problem with cursing people. It could be because I feel like that just fits into the stereotype people have of Pagans, or my overwhelming conscience, or my own trepidations about them.

*Shrug* I guess that's enough of my rambling.  

[Lila Malvae]

I got into this once in another guild and I got ridiculed for my response (of course, the people who did it made it a point to shred anything I posted anyway). Hoping there aren't any here like there were there.
I don't have a problem with healing because you're not harming any. If you're going to throw in the threads of fate thing... well, I don't put much stock into fate on that small of a level. I think that certain events are unavoidable in time, but the way you get there is yours to own. Healing magic is an act of compassion. If kharma has anything to do with it then maybe that act will help the person realize what wrongs they have done or appreciate what they do have instead.  

[Jameta]

In my scattered mind, the only clear thought that is provoked out of this is 'do as the hospitals do', or strive to do good toward man, be he/she good or bad, and look toward the best intentions of all.

I would like to go deeper into the matter, but as I may have ntioned in other places, May has been my retarded month.  

[Starlock]

Well, just a bit of a rebuff, Lila, while generally it is true that by healing you aren't harming, that isn't always the case. I'd love it if the world was really that simple, but it isn't. Whenever you're healing someone, you're harming something else, even if it be the bacteria that are ravaging someone's body. The things that cause disease in us have spirit to them too.

In spite of the thin line between healing and harming, we do it anyway, and that's fine. I think it's fine because it is what we believe is the best thing to do at the time, and in the end that is all we CAN do as human beings. We've got to trust our own judgement at some point and then face the consequences that play out later.  

[WickedDecember]

I don't curse simply because of the 3 fold law or 7 fold for you who go by that rule. I believe that even though someon is horrible they'll get their due punishment and theres no need for me to hurt myself to go agaisnt them in such a way.
healing, though i am not skilled in it has no ill effects as far as i know, but like i said i'm not skilled in it. my skills lie mostly in spells and rite and writing...heh sweatdrop  

[MOD66]

WickedDecember

I don't curse simply because of the 3 fold law or 7 fold for you who go by that rule. I believe that even though someon is horrible they'll get their due punishment and theres no need for me to hurt myself to go agaisnt them in such a way.
healing, though i am not skilled in it has no ill effects as far as i know, but like i said i'm not skilled in it. my skills lie mostly in spells and rite and writing...heh sweatdrop

well the three fold law is not only harm. becase by healing some one you might hurt them. if they need to heal by themselft (emotional) or if they dont know about it. normaly with a fold law you can only cast a spell with no harm done if the people involved know every thing about it sweatdrop  

[Eric Wolfborn]

I don't adhere to a moral code in either regard. While I'm against curses, it's only because I'm not that kind of person.

With power comes responsibility. The irresponsible have a tendency to flounder and collapse of their own accord; I don't really care. Chances are anyone running amok and throwing curses at every sod who they stumble across has all the power of a burnt out bulb to begin with.

As far as I'm concerned, all magic is intuitive. There's no special rule set or guideline...everyone has their own path, but the kind of person who likes to harm others isn't usually disciplined enough to accomplish anything...and those that have the discepline are too unstable to guide their efforts effectively; they're ruled by baser urges, often switching goals mid-spell and losing focus.  

[Lila Malvae]

Starlock

Well, just a bit of a rebuff, Lila, while generally it is true that by healing you aren't harming, that isn't always the case. I'd love it if the world was really that simple, but it isn't. Whenever you're healing someone, you're harming something else, even if it be the bacteria that are ravaging someone's body. The things that cause disease in us have spirit to them too.

In spite of the thin line between healing and harming, we do it anyway, and that's fine. I think it's fine because it is what we believe is the best thing to do at the time, and in the end that is all we CAN do as human beings. We've got to trust our own judgement at some point and then face the consequences that play out later.

What? Okay, every microbe IN THE WORLD does not have a spirit. I don't think so. I do think you're looking into it a bit too much.
A lot of times, some healing techniques are chakra imbalances or to heal psychic wounds.... I have no qualms about it. Depression, anxiety, all are DIS-EASE, and can be treated (to a point) by healing techniques. If it is their fate to die or suffer by whatever ails them, then they probably will regardless of what somebody does to help them. That's why it doesn't always work. The universe has a great, funky way of taking care of itself, whether that be simple or complicated.
And please, don't talk to me like I'm some kind of crystal-waving fluffy, because I'm not, and I really get offended by the idea.

Edit: I thought about it a little and got to pick out my own arguement. There are spirits that cause disease, but even though the tiny spark of life reaches these microbes, I really don't think they have little individual spirits of their own, and I really don't think it would matter if they would. I don't heal by "killing" the ailment. I heal by transferring energy. Instead of blasting, I syphon out, like a bloodletting only no mess, no fuss, and it all gets cycled out into the earth to be regenerated into something useful anyway.  

[Starlock]

LilaMalvae

What? Okay, every microbe IN THE WORLD does not have a spirit. I don't think so. I do think you're looking into it a bit too much.

Apologies, then, for making an undue assumption. Neopaganism in general espouses the idea that there is spirit in all things, regardless of how big or how small, or at the least encourages the idea that all things are sacred and deserving of respect. I made the assumption, that since you're Neopagan, that you hold similar sentiments.

LilaMalvae

A lot of times, some healing techniques are chakra imbalances or to heal psychic wounds.... I have no qualms about it. Depression, anxiety, all are DIS-EASE, and can be treated (to a point) by healing techniques. If it is their fate to die or suffer by whatever ails them, then they probably will regardless of what somebody does to help them. That's why it doesn't always work. The universe has a great, funky way of taking care of itself, whether that be simple or complicated.

Not saying you should have qualms about it... was simply presenting something to consider. I concurr with your sentiment on fate, though I also find that there can at times be banes to holding that point of view (ie, it is possible to become so fatalistic as to avoid doing anything to avoid tragedy or mishap).

LilaMalvae

And please, don't talk to me like I'm some kind of crystal-waving fluffy, because I'm not, and I really get offended by the idea.

(confused blink) I do not understand how you got offended by what I said... for I was in no way talking down to you. But if that is how you perceived it... all I can do is sit here confused and wonder why. I aim to speak politely to people on Gaia... I didn't think that would be taken as "talking down" to people.

LilaMalvae

Edit: I thought about it a little and got to pick out my own arguement. There are spirits that cause disease, but even though the tiny spark of life reaches these microbes, I really don't think they have little individual spirits of their own, and I really don't think it would matter if they would. I don't heal by "killing" the ailment. I heal by transferring energy. Instead of blasting, I syphon out, like a bloodletting only no mess, no fuss, and it all gets cycled out into the earth to be regenerated into something useful anyway.

Hmm... interesting. Perhaps we just mean different things by the term 'spirit.' I'm using the term pretty broadly, so that could account for some differences in perspective. The energy transfer method sounds pretty neat though. One could almost say that regardless of methods that such a thing occurs, as matter/energy isn't created or destroyed, eh?  

[WebenBanu]

That's an interesting question Midara, and there is definitely something to think about there- so let me give it a try.^_^ Sometimes, bringing healing is not always a gift- certain types of injuries, even when physically healed, can bring with them physical or emotional scars from which the person may never fully recover, and they may even have preferred to have died rather than to undertake to live with them. It's probably best to obtain permission from the patient whenever performing healing magic- especially if their illness is severe! However, in answer to your question, I suspect that the reason why people are so much more resistant to cursing people than to healing them is because healing is perceived as a return to that person's natural state, whereas cursing is perceived as adding something negative to an otherwise relatively healthy existence.

Healing can and does sometimes subtly imply acts of violence against the spirits and organisms which cause illness, however, and so perhaps it should not be shocking that many ancient cultures viewed their gods or goddesses of healing as also being somewhat violent. One of the doctors with whom I work shocked me when she said that healing can be a tough fight, and that diseases sometimes have a strong will to live- I asked her if she really believed that diseases wanted to live and she looked surprised and said, "Yes, of course!" I'd simply never thought of it that way, but now that I have it seems obvious that they would. Furthermore, I believe that disease is often used as a means of population management by our environment- when you think about it, disease and our own kind are the only natural predators which we have. And we keep coming up with new ways of fighting off disease (and each other) and continue to multiply far beyond our proper proportion in this world. Still, I think that it is natural that we continue to practice healing- if we gave up the fight, simply allowing disease and injury to claim us, then that would also be out of balance and throwing a wrench in the intended process. I think the best way to address that problem is to limit our own population growth/reproduction habits so that Mother Nature doesn't have to keep on lobbing new diseases at us- but that's perhaps going off the topic.^_^'

I favor healing over cursing since cursing is- in very general terms- a means of blighting or obstructing a person's ability to live their life- and in doing so, limiting their ability to learn and grow through that life. I should probably add that I believe that negative consequences and "lessons to be learned" will naturally be triggered by any deserving action committed, simply by the nature of the way that our world is constructed, without anyone's having to resort to hurrying it along or making things worse with a deliberate curse. Healing, on the other hand- and in most cases- enhances it. In each case, I think that this is the more important consideration: that we learn to live and work with one another and the world around us so as to realize our reason for being here, and what is needed for the world to continue to function at optimum around us, and achieve it. Insofar as healing enhances our ability to do that, it is good, and insofar as it leaves a person in a position where they can no longer function as they were intended, it is bad. We should always consider very carefully which of the two kinds of results we are likely to get before pursuing treatment.  

[blindfaith^_^]

midara the happy banshee

Why is it that someone could judge someone worthy of life and happiness but not of harm?

Are you saying that you wouldn't stop to help someone bleeding to death because they might not be worthy of life? Is there someone you hate so much that you wouldn't help them if they were seriously hurt?

Also many people, including myself believe in that life is sacred and all that can be done to mantain it should be done.

One thought on this is that most people don't heal random strangers. They heal friends and family, who regardless of whether or not they have a right to life, one would want to have a happy and healthy life.

I do give healings people I don't know or barely know, and really I do it because I like helping people. I don't want people in pain and suffering. As far as I'm concerned if a person wants the help, and I can give it to them then I will.

Another thought is that healing, as a process is usually long, arduous, and painful for a person. For example, when I had my wisdom teeth removed, I had reiki preformed on me before surgery (as much for my nerves as for the quickened healing) and reiki performed on me daily afterward to speed up the healing process. This did not mean that I didn't hurt and that I didn't take medication, it just sped up the healing process. Often healings are like this.

One more idea is that healing is natural and in most cases when one "heals" someone they are simply aiding a complex healing process with many other people and factors invovled.

Cursing however, is not really a hastening of a natural process. It is intentionally singling someone out, deeming them deserving, and creating a malicious attack on another.

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Aren't these things two sides of the same coin?

IMHO No.

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And going even further, doesn't all magic stem from the practicioner's judgement?

Depends on one's opinion of magic and how it works. Most of my magical endevors are really about channeling universal energy to hasten to bring about whatever is highest and best in my life. I feel like, by leaving my spells open like this, I have removed power from what I "judge" to be right and have opened it up to a more universal opinion of what is right. On several occassions this has not been fun and sunshiny, but I have learned a lot from the experiences.

As far as spells/magic/energy work that I have done on or for other people. I always word the spells so that they will be whatever is highest and best for the individual. The other thing I acknowledge is that I can only heal/give to a soul what that person wants or requires. There are some wounds not meant to be healed, or meant to be healed at a later point in time.