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 Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:55 pm
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Here is my point of view,
I Love Kenshin, i believe he was a great man, YET i think he was an ingrate to Kaoru. I guess this comes directly after seeing Samurai X Reflection that I saw a more dramatic Kenshin that could not forgive himself. and deny any possible happiness from occuring to him.
I Know Miss. Kaoru fell in love with him knowing how he felt, but come on couldn't Kenshin give life a chance. To me he dragged poor Kaoru with him until the end and i understand that was what she wanted.
Leaving her, coming back to her, leaving her again, how in the world did she manage?
Think it this way...
We are Kenshin and we feel guilty because we killed our first most important love (Tomoe), Time passes and life is giving you another chance for God sakes! Kaoru was the happiness Kenshin needed, yet he denies his happines and continues to suppress himself to live.
Please help me figure this out!
He left her to go fight Shishio!
He suffered for him!
And he only comes back to her to die in her arms?! |
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Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:27 pm
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Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:29 pm
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Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:40 pm
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Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:47 pm
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Yami no Hitokiri Why indeed. The best answer is because Seisouhen is garbage with absolutely zero truth to it, created for a profit by Sony Studios. It completely negates all of Kenshin, Kaoru and the others' character growth and turns them into strangers with the same name and face. Nothing like that crap even happens in the true story. That said, I don't think Seisou-Kenshin did deserve Seisou-Kaoru's love. Any man who would turn his back on his family like that deserves to be kicked to the curb. In this timeline, I don't blame Kenji for hating his father. No matter how you dress it up in righteousness, abaondoment is abandonment. Anyone who turns their back on their family "to save the world" or "answer a higher calling" or any of this other garbage is the worst kind of hypocrite. "If any man doesn't care for his house, especially his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."
Trust and Betrayal were really good, and from there i jumped to the TV series and everything seemed great except I was pretty mad when the story ended and The Jinchu arc wasn't there. I was like "AHH? there should be more!" . So when i heard that a summary of Kenshin'd fight with Enishi came out in REflection I was like "GREAT!". I saw Reflection and likeyou said it was crap! I like sufferment, i mean its essential for the story but to end Kenshin's life like they did was horrible and unexpected!.
Kenshin the great man that always said that living was most important, letting himself died?
Poor Kaoru I really felt so much pitty for her. |
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Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:33 pm
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Kenshin is a strong person. I'm not talking about his mad sword skills or whatever. But think about all he's endured in his short life, from losing his parents to cholera, being sold to slave drivers, witnessing countless murders, being subjected to Hiko's strict regimen, losing the chance to live a normal life. His tender heart leads him to joining a war at a sensitive age, and he is used and his life is destroyed through the atrocities. Still, somehow he manages to keep his heart pure and hold on to love and compassion. That's no easy feat for an assassin. Troubled and confused, he rejects killing as soon as the war is over, and sets off on a wandering path to atonement. For TEN YEARS.
This is the kicker. People say Kenshin doesn't deserve Kaoru's love because she waited for him and supported him through his misery for at least a year before anything happened between them. But Kenshin had already wandered in misery by HIMSELF, dwelling on the horrors of the past, for ten years. It takes a long time to heal from such wounds. Because Kaoru loves Kenshin, she's willing to do whatever it takes to help him heal. Kenshin's job is to open his heart to her, but first she has to earn his trust. Little by little she succeeds in this.
Meanwhile, Kenshin continues to be an extremely good-hearted, wonderful person, despite the huge burdens on his shoulders. I think people undervalue the decisions he made to fight Shishio, etc. That was no easy task for him. What choice did a person who wants to protect everyone have in such a situation?
There is a reason Kaoru loved Kenshin. There is a reason his friends wanted him not to fight Shishio and to stay with them. Do you think they would be that loyal if he was just a miserably, woe-is-me, Emo person who brings everyone down all the time? No! They recognized the beauty in Kenshin's heart, were touched by the compassion and care he treated them with, were inspired by his strong beliefs, his ability to endure even through all those trials, and most of all his determination to help other human beings no matter who they are, however he can. Kenshin is an exceptional person. You don't meet people like that every day. If I met a guy like him, I'd wait for him for ever.
Kaoru is the lucky one.
addition: I feel very strongly about this, almost embarrasingly so, probably because Ruroken fans tend to undervalue Kenshin's wonderful traits. Most fanfiction stories portray Kenshin as a self-hating, unredeemable jerk, and Kaoru is the angel who saves him from eternal damnation. To an extent this is true - Kenshin may never have fully healed without Kaoru's love and trust. But the most important thing is the reason why Kaoru loved Kenshin. That's what made everything possible. Kaoru fell for Kenshin first, so there must be something beautiful and unique about him.
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Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:41 pm
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Akira_Hoshino Kenshin is a strong person. I'm not talking about his mad sword skills or whatever. But think about all he's endured in his short life, from losing his parents to cholera, being sold to slave drivers, witnessing countless murders, being subjected to Hiko's strict regimen, losing the chance to live a normal life. His tender heart leads him to joining a war at a sensitive age, and he is used and his life is destroyed through the atrocities. Still, somehow he manages to keep his heart pure and hold on to love and compassion. That's no easy feat for an assassin. Troubled and confused, he rejects killing as soon as the war is over, and sets off on a wandering path to atonement. For TEN YEARS. This is the kicker. People say Kenshin doesn't deserve Kaoru's love because she waited for him and supported him through his misery for at least a year before anything happened between them. But Kenshin had already wandered in misery by HIMSELF, dwelling on the horrors of the past, for ten years. It takes a long time to heal from such wounds. Because Kaoru loves Kenshin, she's willing to do whatever it takes to help him heal. Kenshin's job is to open his heart to her, but first she has to earn his trust. Little by little she succeeds in this. Meanwhile, Kenshin continues to be an extremely good-hearted, wonderful person, despite the huge burdens on his shoulders. I think people undervalue the decisions he made to fight Shishio, etc. That was no easy task for him. What choice did a person who wants to protect everyone have in such a situation? There is a reason Kaoru loved Kenshin. There is a reason his friends wanted him not to fight Shishio and to stay with them. Do you think they would be that loyal if he was just a miserably, woe-is-me, Emo person who brings everyone down all the time? No! They recognized the beauty in Kenshin's heart, were touched by the compassion and care he treated them with, were inspired by his strong beliefs, his ability to endure even through all those trials, and most of all his determination to help other human beings no matter who they are, however he can. Kenshin is an exceptional person. You don't meet people like that every day. If I met a guy like him, I'd wait for him for ever.Kaoru is the lucky one. addition: I feel very strongly about this, almost embarrasingly so, probably because Ruroken fans tend to undervalue Kenshin's wonderful traits. Most fanfiction stories portray Kenshin as a self-hating, unredeemable jerk, and Kaoru is the angel who saves him from eternal damnation. To an extent this is true - Kenshin may never have fully healed without Kaoru's love and trust. But the most important thing is the reason why Kaoru loved Kenshin. That's what made everything possible. Kaoru fell for Kenshin first, so there must be something beautiful and unique about him.
And believe me, I think Kenshin is great. My idea wasn't to make him look as a bad man because he isn't. He is one hell of a guy but he is selfish. I know he had a though life but you have to admit that he became miserable when Tomoe died, before that he was pretty ok.
I don't underevalue him at all, hey he is a lovely man if you ask me.
But if it weren't for Kaoru saying to him to stay with her, he would of kept on wandering dealing with his guilt.
If it weren't for Kaoru saying "Don't kill" he would of killed!
She was always on his back, helping him not fall on his own demise. That is one hell of a woman but what hurts me (let me calm down.) IS how Kenshin seeing that he may have a good chance of living with her, who doesn't give a dam about his past or what he did! He denies the chance to be happy. |
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Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:57 pm
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mpicaz82 And believe me, I think Kenshin is great. My idea wasn't to make him look as a bad man because he isn't. He is one hell of a guy but he is selfish. I know he had a though life but you have to admit that he became miserable when Tomoe died, before that he was pretty ok. I don't underevalue him at all, hey he is a lovely man if you ask me. But if it weren't for Kaoru saying to him to stay with her, he would of kept on wandering dealing with his guilt. If it weren't for Kaoru saying "Don't kill" he would of killed! She was always on his back, helping him not fall on his own demise. That is one hell of a woman but what hurts me (let me calm down.) IS how Kenshin seeing that he may have a good chance of living with her, who doesn't give a dam about his past or what he did! He denies the chance to be happy.
I understand. I wasn't trying to attack you personally. It's just that I've seen so many fanfics and conversations that depict Kenshin the way I specified. Undoubtedly Kenshin is miserable, even though Kaoru is more than willing to give him the life of his dreams. I have more than once felt like I wanted to slap him to get him to propose to her. But every time he lets her down, he finds a way to make it up to her. She counts on that. Kaoru is certainly just as remarkable a woman as Kenshin is a man, because she is strong enough to carry her own burdens - running a dojo, managing low income, coping with her parents' deaths - and help Kenshin with his own. I love Kaoru dearly and I'm a dedicated KenKao fan. But I still don't think the one is better than the other for the sole reason that they are a pair - they are Kenshin and Kaoru. It's their job to help each other with their burdens, and they do.
It was mentioned that Kaoru helps Kenshin more than he does her. I disagree with that. Kenshin has done worlds of good for Kaoru just by being Kenshin. That goes back to my previous post. Plus he treats her like gold and has taught her about true love and compassion. Kaoru definitely is there to support Kenshin more than he is there to support her, but that is merely because Kenshin has larger, heavier burdens than she does. I think burdens are an inevitable part of love. Kaoru shows her love for Kenshin by supporting him always, and in return Kenshin is always there for Kaoru.
He definitely should have returned her affections earlier. She fell in love with him first, but he fell for her quickly. Who wouldn't? She's sweet, cute, affectionate, and most important of all, willing to accept him despite his issues. She doesn't drag out the skeletons in the closet unless he wants to discuss them. Even after he told her the story about Tomoe, she was strong about it and continued to put Kenshin's needs above her own. Kenshin also put Kaoru before himself - but he misinterpreted what that meant. She understood how her death would affect Kenshin and resolved to live. Kenshin didn't realize that his death would be just as painful for Kaoru until the very end. That's what I loved about the battle with Enishi - Kenshin finally realized how much his life is worth. Even if just one other person loved him, that one person was worth living for.
At the same time, I can't blame Kenshin for being so slow to return Kaoru's feelings. The man had spent ten years wallowing in misery. It's a big step to jump from miserable to jubilant. He simply wasn't ready. And he was confused and torn inside, still afraid that a ghost of the Battousai haunted him, and afraid to taint the pure souls around him. This was a misconception on his part, but who can blame him for feeling so, seeing as it's Kenshin for heaven's sake! He hates violence and killing, and it horrifies him that he is capable of such. He's deluded himself into believing a monster lives inside him. Kaoru shows him little by little that he is not a monster - he is a wonderful man more than worthy of love. He is, of course, grateful to Kaoru from the start for accepting him as he is, even if he does think her rather naive for it. But eventually he comes to see her point of view of mercy and forgiveness as a beautiful outlook on life. It just takes time - I don't blame him for needing time, and I admire Kaoru for continuing to wait for him in spite of it all.
So I definitely think Kenshin was frustrating with his ignoring Kaoru's feelings, and I think Kaoru was quite amazing for supporting him. Although I think he 100% deserved support, from someone who loved him or any of his friends.
But this threads title is "Does Kenshin deserve Kaoru's love?" so it's misleading. You can understand why I would be annoyed by people who think he doesn't deserve her love, right? You have to admit the connotations are negative. I definitely think they deserve each other and balance each other. Kenshin is not the hindrance in the relationship. They both have their strengths and their weaknesses. So I simply can't put Kaoru into the role of Angelic Longsuffering Lover. I almost think it's degrading to view her as such, because what woman would love a man too weak to show the slightest bit of affection? Kenshin is a strong man. I just hate to see him portrayed as weak, that's all. |
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Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:02 am
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Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:01 am
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Akira_Hoshino mpicaz82 And believe me, I think Kenshin is great. My idea wasn't to make him look as a bad man because he isn't. He is one hell of a guy but he is selfish. I know he had a though life but you have to admit that he became miserable when Tomoe died, before that he was pretty ok. I don't underevalue him at all, hey he is a lovely man if you ask me. But if it weren't for Kaoru saying to him to stay with her, he would of kept on wandering dealing with his guilt. If it weren't for Kaoru saying "Don't kill" he would of killed! She was always on his back, helping him not fall on his own demise. That is one hell of a woman but what hurts me (let me calm down.) IS how Kenshin seeing that he may have a good chance of living with her, who doesn't give a dam about his past or what he did! He denies the chance to be happy. I understand. I wasn't trying to attack you personally. It's just that I've seen so many fanfics and conversations that depict Kenshin the way I specified. Undoubtedly Kenshin is miserable, even though Kaoru is more than willing to give him the life of his dreams. I have more than once felt like I wanted to slap him to get him to propose to her. But every time he lets her down, he finds a way to make it up to her. She counts on that. Kaoru is certainly just as remarkable a woman as Kenshin is a man, because she is strong enough to carry her own burdens - running a dojo, managing low income, coping with her parents' deaths - and help Kenshin with his own. I love Kaoru dearly and I'm a dedicated KenKao fan. But I still don't think the one is better than the other for the sole reason that they are a pair - they are Kenshin and Kaoru. It's their job to help each other with their burdens, and they do. It was mentioned that Kaoru helps Kenshin more than he does her. I disagree with that. Kenshin has done worlds of good for Kaoru just by being Kenshin. That goes back to my previous post. Plus he treats her like gold and has taught her about true love and compassion. Kaoru definitely is there to support Kenshin more than he is there to support her, but that is merely because Kenshin has larger, heavier burdens than she does. I think burdens are an inevitable part of love. Kaoru shows her love for Kenshin by supporting him always, and in return Kenshin is always there for Kaoru. He definitely should have returned her affections earlier. She fell in love with him first, but he fell for her quickly. Who wouldn't? She's sweet, cute, affectionate, and most important of all, willing to accept him despite his issues. She doesn't drag out the skeletons in the closet unless he wants to discuss them. Even after he told her the story about Tomoe, she was strong about it and continued to put Kenshin's needs above her own. Kenshin also put Kaoru before himself - but he misinterpreted what that meant. She understood how her death would affect Kenshin and resolved to live. Kenshin didn't realize that his death would be just as painful for Kaoru until the very end. That's what I loved about the battle with Enishi - Kenshin finally realized how much his life is worth. Even if just one other person loved him, that one person was worth living for. At the same time, I can't blame Kenshin for being so slow to return Kaoru's feelings. The man had spent ten years wallowing in misery. It's a big step to jump from miserable to jubilant. He simply wasn't ready. And he was confused and torn inside, still afraid that a ghost of the Battousai haunted him, and afraid to taint the pure souls around him. This was a misconception on his part, but who can blame him for feeling so, seeing as it's Kenshin for heaven's sake! He hates violence and killing, and it horrifies him that he is capable of such. He's deluded himself into believing a monster lives inside him. Kaoru shows him little by little that he is not a monster - he is a wonderful man more than worthy of love. He is, of course, grateful to Kaoru from the start for accepting him as he is, even if he does think her rather naive for it. But eventually he comes to see her point of view of mercy and forgiveness as a beautiful outlook on life. It just takes time - I don't blame him for needing time, and I admire Kaoru for continuing to wait for him in spite of it all. So I definitely think Kenshin was frustrating with his ignoring Kaoru's feelings, and I think Kaoru was quite amazing for supporting him. Although I think he 100% deserved support, from someone who loved him or any of his friends. But this threads title is "Does Kenshin deserve Kaoru's love?" so it's misleading. You can understand why I would be annoyed by people who think he doesn't deserve her love, right? You have to admit the connotations are negative. I definitely think they deserve each other and balance each other. Kenshin is not the hindrance in the relationship. They both have their strengths and their weaknesses. So I simply can't put Kaoru into the role of Angelic Longsuffering Lover. I almost think it's degrading to view her as such, because what woman would love a man too weak to show the slightest bit of affection? Kenshin is a strong man. I just hate to see him portrayed as weak, that's all.
Dude I admire your passion for the couple and I couldn't have describe it better than what you just did.
I don't doubt Kenshin loved Kaoru, but he didn't love her as how he loved Tomoe. Tomoe, that woman that changed the cold hearted battousai and left him with a traumatizing past. As how Kaoru said on Reflection's
"And yet how strangely i envy her for being with him this way...
Kenshin if i died for you this way will you remember me always?"
Because she knew deep inside Kenshin's heart still belong to Tomoe.
As how I said before my feelings come directly from Reflection which led me to think- what Kenshin really felt for Kaoru.
Sometimes the movie would make me feel that he was with her just to be thankful since he felt his life was so insignificant and empty. How he expresses himself with Kaoru about how the days are peaceful yet unhappiness still lingers when he has Kaoru and a child by his side, how can he say that?
And I'm sorry but I disagree with you in saying that he was always with her when she needed him. He left her and Kenji to go wander off for a long period of time. That man who always talked truth and made many people open their minds and yet he never applied it to his own life. |
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Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:32 am
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Well, the reason I can't see it your way has nothing to do with disagreeing with your theory - it's just that I don't accept Reflection as the truth. Watsuki did not write it and he even said he does not like it as much as he likes his own happy ending he wrote for Kenshin. I'm a purist, and as far as I'm concerned if it didn't come straight from the author, it's not true.
That's not to say I didn't like Reflection - I did, I enjoyed it very much. It was heartwrenching and made me cry. But even though the characters were from Ruroken, they seemed more like cosplayers to me. None of them were anything like the Kenshin-gumi I'd come to know and love. So while the final scene where Kaoru dies and whatnot ripped my heart out, I consoled myself with the knowledge that Reflection is little more than fanfiction.
You seem to hold Reflection in high regard and consider it truth. That's fine if it's your opinion, but we're never going to agree there. If we were talking exclusively about Reflection Kenshin and Kaoru, I might agree with you a little bit more. Certainly on the subject of Kenshin leaving Kaoru again to wander and then join the war - when I saw that in Reflection my reaction was, "Kenshin would never do that!" and I felt so bad for poor Kaoru and Kenji. But the fact remains that I consider Reflection just a story written to make money, and the truth lies in Volume 29 of Rurouni Kenshin.
In other words, we're never going to agree, but smile each to his own! It's good to have different opinions, and I think it's great you feel so strongly for Kaoru - more people should recognize her strength and admirable qualities.
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Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:21 pm
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Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:28 pm
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Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:06 pm
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mpicaz82 TheIllustriousBlueJay However if you read issues #18-#28, it tells the story in it's true form. Kaoru loved Kenshin and He loved her back. As a matter of fact, he finds his atonement for his life as a Hitokiri in her. Not to mention when Kaoru "dies", He feels the same way as he did when Tomoe died. Yes but until issues # 18-28! I mean it was not until he saw her "dead" that he realize that he really cares for her! Isn't that wrong? Can somebody really supress oneself's to loving for so long? And yes i know that he found some peace and it was because of Kaoru but you have to admit that she did so much more to Kenshin than what he did for her. Ok he saved her from Enishi, Gosh! it was his duty after all right? Still Kaoru was the key to Enishi's weakness because he saw in her his sister Tomoe! I guess I'm furious at how the romance was created. Believe me i like the novel as it is, but it wouldn't have hurt a little of more romance as the Title states. Meiji swordsman a romantic story |
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Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:30 pm
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