So... just who ARE the Lord and Lady?

[Miss Lune Soleil]

I've never noticed before, but the majority of books and websites concerning Wicca seem to focus on every aspect of Wicca except for the Lord and Lady. Even then, the Lady is focused on more in most cases.

So... I'm looking for info on the Wiccan God, his aspects and how they relate to eachother, his attributes, his roles in the religion and indeed in the world, his images and how he appears, etc.

The Goddess I've got covered, the Moon-Goddess-MMC stuff isn't too hard to figure out. But the God is still puzzling me biggrin I'm writting an article on him so any help is most appreciated.  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

I'd say check the Charge of the God, and go from there. I'm not that knowledgeable about Wicca.  

[Jameta]

Nihilistic Seraph

I'd say check the Charge of the God, and go from there. I'm not that knowledgeable about Wicca.

Wicca: For the Rest of Us has a few God charges that can be reviewed. Tea also mentioned in the update that you presented in the Witchcraft Thread had something about the 'Dieties of the Isles', that which the Lord and Lady are. If you can find more information on what that title actually means, you might be able to find more information.

It might also be helpful if you provide what information you already have on the Lord/God before we start through up specifics that we may have. razz  

[Miss Lune Soleil]

Yeah I've seen that site but they aren't specific enough. I'm looking at it from scratch, pretend I've only just heard of the Lord... I need basics as well as specifics sweatdrop

The Charges are vague at best anyway, they don't say "well I have two aspects of Holly/Oak king, but they combine... and then somewhere I'm a Horned hunter...." etc confused If you see what I mean. That's the stuff that confuses me and I need to get my head around.  

[Jameta]

Well, if we wish to step away from what Gardner has presented and step into the realm of general literature, I can provide what Dorothy Morrison supplies in her The Craft: A Witch's Book of Shadows:

In 'Working with Major Power Sources', under 'The God', Morrison

AS with the Goddess, the God has many names and plays many roles- His main function being that of Her Consort. Nonetheless, He, too, is a Triple Deity and is commonly known as the Young Lord, the Father/Horned One/Greenman, and the Ancient One. All-knowing and omnipotent, He is the catalyst that ignites the Life Force of the Goddess and sets the creation process into motion. As the Young Lord, He is the newborn Sun of winter, the golden joy of childhood, and the masculine flirtations and pleasures of adolescence. As the Father/Horned One/Greenman, He is the birile stage in the woods, the fertile seed that activiates the greening of the Earth, and the gentle Father on whome we lean. The Ancient One brings us the voice of reason, the strength of knowing, and the power of experience.

In addition, Morrison provided/

The Rhyming Charge of the God
I am the echo your hear in the forst, deep
And the warmth of the Sun upon your face
I am the ageless sound of the ocean's roar
And the power that's felt in every wild place
I am the wheat the rustles low on the breezes
And the spark that ignites the hearth fire
I am the passion and power and ecstasy
That is reached at the end of desire
I am teh squirrel who plays games in the treetops
And the young stage who runs wild and free
I am the clatter of hooves on an old gravel road
And the strength of the ancient oak tree
I am found in the wrinkles of the old crippled man
I am found in the child, young and strong
I am found in the joy of the union of love
In the passionate kiss, slow and long
I am your Lover, your Father, the Ancient One
Take my hand and I'll teach you the Dance
Of the change of the seasons and the eye of the storm
Of fertility, love, and romance
Remember always, my children, be merry
Hear the lilit of my music, so light
And hold sacred My realm and all it sustains
As you dance to My tune in the night

Further, under 'The Sun/God Connection', she

The Sun's energy is warm and direct, uncomplicated and masculine. Unlike the quarterly motion of the Moon, the Sun changes phases several times each day and gives the practitioner unlimited opportunities for immediate spellwork. Even better, the Sun's wide range of properties can be used to handle almost any magical effort normally aided by the moon.

Sunrise (Young Lord/Newborn Sun): Sunrise provides a good time for efforts involving beginnings, change, and cleansing...
Morning (Young Lord/Adolescent): During the morning hours, the energy of the Sun become strong and active...
Noon (Horned One/Greenman): The power of the Sun peaks at high noon...
Afternoon (Father): As the Sun descends, its energy becomes more receptive in nature...
Sunset (Ancient One): This is the time to work on anything that requires reduction or alleviation...

Naturally, this is no substitute for a more definitive text by a more trusted/known name on the subject. However, it does provide some information to reference and test for validity, thereby creating a base.  

[Miss Lune Soleil]

That helps make it a little clearer, thanks 4laugh

Though I've now heard that he's a diune god... but that says triple god xd ah the confusion lol  

[Jameta]

Phoenixfire Lune Soleil

That helps make it a little clearer, thanks 4laugh

Though I've now heard that he's a diune god... but that says triple god xd ah the confusion lol

Could be that someone just shoved the Young Lord aspect into the Horned One and called it good. Then again, there could be someting legitamet(sp?) to the idea of the Lord only having two facets (despite it not being a very equalizing notion).  

[Miss Lune Soleil]

Well the peeps from M&R agree that the God is dualistic, with his Holly/Oak King aspects... but they seem to be missing my main question and replying to questions I haven't asked... confused  

[Jameta]

Phoenixfire Lune Soleil

Well the peeps from M&R agree that the God is dualistic, with his Holly/Oak King aspects... but they seem to be missing my main question and replying to questions I haven't asked... confused

I cannot help but find that amusing. whee

I feel that the Lord would be a Triple Deity in that, not only does his Lady (who should be his equal to create a Divine Balance and Unity) have three aspects, but we see the Sun in three phases- morning, noon, and evening. For me, it would not make sense to consider that the actual Sun can have these phases, but the deity associated with it cannot.

That's only reasoning, though; I do not know if there's anything within Gardner's writing of the original charges that would support that.  

[The Bookwyrm]

AJ Drew has a good book out there called God/Goddess that was written in conjunction with Patricia Tolesco. The book is set up so that it deals with issues in how they relate to both the God and Goddess, deal with the three aspects of each, and so on. Drew writes the sections about the God, and Tolesco the Goddess.

It's not very long, but it's a nice change to see the God getting equal space and emphasis.  

[FireonYce]

Gypsy Blue

AJ Drew has a good book out there called God/Goddess that was written in conjunction with Patricia Tolesco. The book is set up so that it deals with issues in how they relate to both the God and Goddess, deal with the three aspects of each, and so on. Drew writes the sections about the God, and Tolesco the Goddess.

It's not very long, but it's a nice change to see the God getting equal space and emphasis.

Gypsy your not suppose to beat me to it!

AJ Drew is an excellent male author for male wiccans. He goes over what being a male wiccan really is. as well as emphasising on the god as much on the goddess and making a balance on the two. He says that because of the desire for so many people to be different they stamp out the god mroe as it associates them to other religions , when many people who are into wica are trying to be different. I have all of his books they are all excellent reads. He can be found im Barns and Nobles for sure and at times Books a Million. Thats the best i can give you on that though. But he is an excellent author. My favorite author on wicca by far.  

[The Bookwyrm]

Christo Minaverus

Gypsy your not suppose to beat me to it!

AJ Drew is an excellent male author for male wiccans. He goes over what being a male wiccan really is. as well as emphasising on the god as much on the goddess and making a balance on the two. He says that because of the desire for so many people to be different they stamp out the god mroe as it associates them to other religions , when many people who are into wica are trying to be different. I have all of his books they are all excellent reads. He can be found im Barns and Nobles for sure and at times Books a Million. Thats the best i can give you on that though. But he is an excellent author. My favorite author on wicca by far.

Sorry Christo! I've had the book for months, and it just occured to me today that it might be helpful here. I've really enjoyed Drew's writing, and I want to look into more of him (you can find him online at Amazon as well).

Apart from writing just for men, I think women stand to learn a lot from his writing. It's natural that in most cases, most women will have a better understanding of the Goddess being women themselves. But to be fully balanced, we really do need to understand the masculin. I've always felt off balance because I tend to be a bit more masculin; I'm still pretty much a tom boy and I'm seen as "one of the guys" among my male friends (one went so far as to say "You're not a girl! You're a guy with boobs!"). Understanding the God better has helped to restore balance and shoed me what I was missing.

Another reason, I think the God has been pusched to the side is that the feminist movement has really gone crazy over Wicca, and a lot of Paganism in general. The concept of the divine female opened up a new world for "gilr power", providing them with a safe environment to discuss their ideals and find encouragement. Unfortunately, it seems to have gotten a little out of control and it's turned very "YAY Goddess!" in a hurry, some times witht he God completely left out.

One of the reasons I wish people wouldn't mix religion and politics...  

[Miss Lune Soleil]

Thanks guys whee

You were right though, Jam, the God is also triple in that respect from what I've found. The God progresses through Son, Father and...er.. the old version whee lol and as he does, he also goes from Oak King (Son/Father) to Holly King (Father/Old One).
And those Holly/Oak King aspects have also been called/related to the Horned God and Green Man.

That's my confusion sorted whee  

[Jameta]

w00tness.

I feel like I've read somewhere that either the God/Lord or Goddess/Lady was associated with the cycle of the seasons, too... Any ideas on that one?  

[Miss Lune Soleil]

Jameta

w00tness.

I feel like I've read somewhere that either the God/Lord or Goddess/Lady was associated with the cycle of the seasons, too... Any ideas on that one?

That'll be the God. Through the waxing year, from Yule onwards to Bealtaine, he is the Oak King, the Son/Father... and as the year goes on he gets older, mates with the Goddess at Bealtaine and impregnates her with himself. (I think) at the end of the year, up to Samhain, the God is the Holly King after doing battle with the Oak King who dies... and when he reaches Samhain he's the Old One.
I really need to brush up on that bit confused
And then eventually the Old God dies and is consumed by the Goddess, and at Yule the Goddess gives birth to him as the Son and it all starts again.

Or something like that gonk