A question, mainly with my membership.

[Mage The Red]

Hello all. VK here. I have some things I'd like to ask, and to say. Mainly, since I've been in this guild, I've felt a sense of comfort around all of you. Some I've made friends with, others I've merely spoken to once or twice. Now, I am thinking about life in general, and I just suddenly thought of this question.

Do any of you think I am a real goth? Do you think I am just a poser because of how little I know about the Gothic culture?

Please, tell me what you think. It's kinda bothering me, and I'd really like to know. Thank you all...

Sincrely, VK

Vampire Kurix  

[Faren_of_FaelThas]

i don't think anyone can really say whether you are a goth or not Kurix sweatdrop

it really just depends on what you define "Goth" as 3nodding

i mean as an American Goth black is the main shade i wear, i have two large, over-sized rings and my pants typically have more pockets and zippers than what i REALLY need. i wear this black knitted scarf on cold days and i have a jacket that goes to my shins that has a pocket flap and a zipper which quite literally have no apparent use whatsoever. i listen to metal or industrial music, my hair is black and i like it long with a white lock in it. i'm getting tattoos and my ear pierced and i write dark poetry and horror/fantasy stories. i try my best not to codemn people and try to understand what they do what they do. i never say that one religion or style of music is better than another and i tend to be fascinated with stories and tales of the dead, werewolves, and witchcraft.

but does this mean i'm Goth? probably not.

for example there are Japanese Goth who dress in black and red and have multiple safety pins in their clothes. they've got pants and shirts with belts and zippers, or wear some of those romanti-goth style shirts, slacks and hats. they also listen to Goth bands like Dir En Grey and paint their face white. but they don't really try to do the whole "be understanding of people" thing. and i've known a couple other people who listened to the grind core/heavy metal bands and dressed black and were of the same "be understanding" doctrine as well as practiced witchcraft/druidism. but they didn't actually listen to Goth music, and some of them wore mostly white one some days.

and some people dressed goth and listened to heavy metal/industrial music just to try to act tough and look cool. but in reality they were just a bunch of gamer/geeks (not saying that in a condescending way, i was a geek myself for some time, and i still have a slight nodding to geekdom. if i didn't then i wouldn't be on these forums almost everyday blaugh )

so what is goth exactly? if you can't say that we have one specific religion, wear the exact same style of clothes (i don't know about you, but i don't think i've seen one goth dress exactly like another, we're all like fingerprints or snowflakes.), or listen to the same exact music, what is it that makes us goth?

my personal definition of what being "goth" is that black dominates your wardrobe, and you have a relatively open mind about everything, and that you respect art in all forms (even if you don't really like it, you still don't just blatantly insult it or the artists who made it).  

[Verienkeli]

Does it really matter? Be yourself, and if others can't respect you for that then I'd say they are closer to being "posers" (if there really is such a thing) than you are. The Goth counter-culture still shares at least one thing with the CC it came from, Punk, and that is the fact that it's about being you and being different. If you happen to be different from most of those you share that CC with, so what? I am the only person I know of who has identified with the punk CC for a number of years and doesn't have any tattoos, no extra piercings and I've never dyed or done anything crazy with my hair. Some have called me a poser while others have praised my lack of falling for the thinking that one has to look a certain way to be a punk. Either way, I just don't care. I am who I am. My advice for you... be who you are. In my opinion, you're welcome here either way.  

[Faren_of_FaelThas]

Verienkeli

Does it really matter? Be yourself, and if others can't respect you for that then I'd say they are closer to being "posers" (if there really is such a thing) than you are. The Goth counter-culture still shares at least one thing with the CC it came from, Punk, and that is the fact that it's about being you and being different. If you happen to be different from most of those you share that CC with, so what? I am the only person I know of who has identified with the punk CC for a number of years and doesn't have any tattoos, no extra piercings and I've never dyed or done anything crazy with my hair. Some have called me a poser while others have praised my lack of falling for the thinking that one has to look a certain way to be a punk. Either way, I just don't care. I am who I am. My advice for you... be who you are. In my opinion, you're welcome here either way.

*nods* that's a pretty good way to look at it as well.

i guess it is one of those matrix things. "being a goth is like being in love: you either know you are or you don't." mrgreen  

[Dances With Homosexuals]

Meh. I don't think anyone can really identify a goth, as in my opinion it's more of a mindset than anything. It doesn't matter what you wear, or listen to, or anything. Goth is being yourself, and being true about who you are. Sure, most goths have a fascination with death and the darker side of things, but in all actuality, it's a fascination with life and truth. Death is a part of life, and to deny death is to deny life in itself. To deny the darker things is to turn your back on the world's truths, and create a reality of your own.

I don't always wear the stereotypical goth clothes. Yea, I have them, I have a lot of things. I just ordered two different goggles because they looked cool, and I have a few pairs of pants that are much like the ones that Faren described, but I also have a few workout jackets and A&F shirts. Depending on my mood, I'll wear certain things. Wednesday, I felt like wearing an all white shirt with black jeans, and a workout jacket.

Just because you don't look a certain way, or do a certain thing doesn't make you not goth. In fact, the most peppy person can be goth. Just as long as you're happy with being yourself, and you don't let others get you down, what else matters?  

[-Isel-]

Faren_of_FaelThas

Goth bands like Dir En Grey

Please refrain from calling them that. Visual Kei if you want to go by style and not genre, or just J-rock if you can't honestly think of anything else to call them.

Oh, and also, the "E" is lowercase.  

[Faren_of_FaelThas]

eh heh sweatdrop sowwie >.>  

[ketchakik]

Vampire Kurix

Hello all. VK here. I have some things I'd like to ask, and to say. Mainly, since I've been in this guild, I've felt a sense of comfort around all of you. Some I've made friends with, others I've merely spoken to once or twice. Now, I am thinking about life in general, and I just suddenly thought of this question.

Do any of you think I am a real goth? Do you think I am just a poser because of how little I know about the Gothic culture?

Please, tell me what you think. It's kinda bothering me, and I'd really like to know. Thank you all...

Sincrely, VK

Vampire Kurix

why should it matter?
you associate with us and like it...lables themselves are not important. they simply are a way for us to be catargrised and pidgeonholled...
be you and be happy with that...others will accept you or reject you for who you are not what you try to be like.  

[GilAskan]

Whether or not you're a goth depends on what you think a goth is, as others have said.

To many (older goths in particular), a goth is an avid fan of goth-rock.

To many (younger goths, usually), goth is "a state of mind" or a perspective.

To me? A goth is a member of the culture which revolves around goth-rock.  

[Dances With Homosexuals]

GilAskan

Whether or not you're a goth depends on what you think a goth is, as others have said.

To many (older goths in particular), a goth is an avid fan of goth-rock.

To many (younger goths, usually), goth is "a state of mind" or a perspective.

To me? A goth is a member of the culture which revolves around goth-rock.

A couple things I want to ask you.

One, what exactly is goth rock? Music is Music, and as someone else said earlier, labels don't really matter.

Two, I could totally reverse what you said. I come from a very "gothic" enviroment. I live in a gothic house, and I was raised around a lot of different things. To every goth I know, a goth is someone with a certain "state of mind" whereas the poser goths who just dress a certain way to rebel against their parents, and listen to "gotchic rock" for the same reason.

Hell, my grandmother and great grandmother remember the emergence of the gothic culture, and all the gothic subcultures into popular society, and were "active members" before hand.

So what now? (that's not a smart tone, that's a curious tone)  

[GilAskan]

Blue Jewel

GilAskan

Whether or not you're a goth depends on what you think a goth is, as others have said.

To many (older goths in particular), a goth is an avid fan of goth-rock.

To many (younger goths, usually), goth is "a state of mind" or a perspective.

To me? A goth is a member of the culture which revolves around goth-rock.

A couple things I want to ask you.

One, what exactly is goth rock? Music is Music, and as someone else said earlier, labels don't really matter.

Two, I could totally reverse what you said. I come from a very "gothic" enviroment. I live in a gothic house, and I was raised around a lot of different things. To every goth I know, a goth is someone with a certain "state of mind" whereas the poser goths who just dress a certain way to rebel against their parents, and listen to "gotchic rock" for the same reason.

Hell, my grandmother and great grandmother remember the emergence of the gothic culture, and all the gothic subcultures into popular society, and were "active members" before hand.

So what now? (that's not a smart tone, that's a curious tone)

First, I started off my post with a comment about "You are goth depending on what you think goth is" for a good reason. There is no solid defintion of goth. You could ask 100 different goths, and you could get 100 different answers back.

In saying this, I want to establish that my comments on the goth culture are my opinions, and I do not solicit them as fact. However, I should also say that any information I mention which can be proved is factual. Goth-rock is a real genre of music, the bands I list are equally as real.

My Post in the Music Subforum

What does goth-rock sound like you may ask? Here's some good identifying factors:

-Light, stacatto drums (rims & cymbals in particular)
-Prominent, bold bass-guitar (typically holding the melody, unlike almost every other form of rock which has electric guitar holding the melody)
-Heavily distorted, warped, and swirling guitar
-Deep, crooning [male] vocal style (best represented by Peter Murphy, Ian Curtis, or Andrew Eldritch)
-High, wavering [female] vocal style (best represented by Melora Creager)
-Fluid, poetic lyrics, with such subjects as existentialism, love, life, death, and revenge.

Other factors which are common, but not definitive of the genre:

-Atmospheric keyboard instruments (piano, harpsichord, and pipe-organ are all equally common)
-Hollow, processed synthesizers
-Full latin choirs
-Multi-layered backing vocals
-Sweeping violins
-Ominous cello/concert-bass

Best examples of the genre's sound:
"Bela Lugosi's Dead" ~ Bauhaus
"Shadowplay" ~ Joy Division
"We're So Happy" ~ Danse Society
"The Mercy Seat" ~ Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds

To put it more simply, Goth rock is a genre of rock characterized by an ominous, lugubrious instrumental style and poetic lyricism.

What are some goth-bands?

Early Influences (Proto-goth, so to speak):
- Adam and the Ants
- Gloria Mundi
- David Bowie
- Alice Cooper
- The Cramps
- The Damned
- The Doors
- The Germs
- Screamin’ Jay Hawkins
- Iggy and the Stooges
- Mott the Hoople
- New York Dolls
- The Rocky Horror [/Picture] Show
- Velvet Underground

The three major pillars of goth-rock:
- Joy Division
- Bauhaus
- Siouxsie and the Banshees

Other Major Goth-rock Groups and Artists:
- The Cure
- The Cramps
- Sisters of Mercy
- The Mission UK
- Virgin Prunes
- Tones on Tail
- Love & Rockets
- Dali's Car
- Fields of Nephilim
- Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds
- The Creatures
- Christian Death
- Black Tape for a Blue Girl
- Clan of Xymox
- The Damned
- Danse Society
- Nosferatu
- Gene Loves Jezebel
- Flesh for Lulu
- Echo and the Bunnymen
- Killing Joke
- Lords of the New Church
- Southern Death Cult
- Voltaire
- Xmal Deutschland
- The March Violets
- Red Lorry Yellow Lorry
- London After Midnight

Bands that are not goth-rock, but take influence from goth-rock (such as "She Wants Revenge", who took strong influence from Joy Division) or have ties to the culture (such as Ministry, who were wildly popular in the goth-club scene in the early 80's):
- Alien Sex Fiend
- Tori Amos
- The 69 Eyes
- HIM
- She Wants Revenge
- Ministry
- The Death Cult
- The Cult
- My Life with the Thrill Kill Kult
- The Cruxshadows
- Rasputina
- New Model Army
- Einsturdzen Nuebauten
- Laibach
- Inkubbus SUkkubus
- VNV Nation
- :wumpscut:
- Type O Negative
- Interpol

Bands Which Are NOT Goth-rock but are commonly called it:
- A Perfect Circle
- AFI
- Aiden
- The Birthday Massacre
- Cradle of Filth
- Dimmu Borgir
- Evanescence
- funkerVOGT
- Good Charlotte
- Hatebreed
- HIM
- Insane Clown Posse
- Interpol
- Jack Off Jill
- KoRn
- Lacuna Coil
- Linkin Park
- Malice Mizer
- Marilyn Manson
- Megadeth
- Mudvayne
- My Chemical Romance
- Nightwish
- Nine Inch Nails
- Nocturne
- Rammstein
- Razed In Black
- Scarling
- Skinny Puppy
- Slipknot
- Tool
- VNV Nation
- :wumpscut:
- Within Temptation

Is Gothic Metal Related to Goth-rock?

Other than the similar name, no, not musically. They occasionally have similar thematic or aesthetic elements, but have no musical affiliation.

Why is _________ not on the goth-rock list!?! / Why is ________ on the not-goth-rock list!?!?!

Simply because they either don't fit into the musical parameters of the genre of goth-rock. In the case that something isn't listed at all, I probably didn't feel it was important enough to list it, or I forgot.

If you have any specific questions on why one band is goth-rock or another is not, feel free to ask.

*ahem*

To answer your second question... I again say that I will not refute your opinion of goth as being correct. It is equally possible as being true. And I certainly agree with you in saying that there are MANY posers (or people who simply are just going through a phase) who dress in goth styles (there really are several dozen fashion styles in the goth culture) as a way to rebel, or a way to seem unique (though, any rebellious teenager along this line WOULD NOT listen to goth-rock, but rather, usually, metal and shock-rock artists such as Marilyn Manson).

My personal problem (though, again, I do not say the opinion is wrong, I am just stating why I myself do not proscribe to the opinon) with the "Goth is a state of mind" statement is it has no grounds to stand on. Any one of these said posers could very well say "I'm a goth because I think I am, and you can't prove me wrong". You can neither prove nor disprove someone's legitimacy in the goth culture.

I hope I was able to clear up some confusion. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask.  

[Mage The Red]

Wow... I didn't expect so many answers. So many wise ones too. I thank all who posted and gave out their opinions. I respect them all, and I shall keep them at heart! =)

Sincerely, VK

Vampire Kurix

P.S. I love you all! (Only friendly, people. Just incase anyone takes it the wrong way.)  

[Redwing~Shadow]

goth is really a term for free expresion, and honestly, i dont even say im goth, i just like to chat and disscuse with ppl like myself, and I dont see a need to be goth to be in this guild. Some ppl make it a big deal, but really goth doesnt mean you have to wear all black and act as other say u should, it should all be about being yourself.  

[The Dadalorian]

i don't know much about it, either so it's okay
i just joined because i get along with gothic people really well  

[Dances With Homosexuals]

Redwing~Shadow

goth is really a term for free expresion, and honestly, i dont even say im goth, i just like to chat and disscuse with ppl like myself, and I dont see a need to be goth to be in this guild. Some ppl make it a big deal, but really goth doesnt mean you have to wear all black and act as other say u should, it should all be about being yourself.

What I said in a nutshell. xd