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Nihilistic Seraph Vice Captain
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:00 pm
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Something that I've found a little contradictory recently. I'm sure we've all run accross the line of "I'm Pagan/Wiccan/a witch, I don't believe in Satan." It's a common enough sentiment and makes sense on the surface - why believe in an entity that belongs to a belief structure that you don't follow?
However, aren't most pagans accepting of other pantheons as well? If you can believe in both Isis, the Morrigan, Amaraterasu, Hera and Raven, why not Satan? As a figure, he is quite an important part of the Christian mythos, and if we can accept Jesus, why not Satan?
Personally, I think it's a defense mechanism that's come up in response to claims of devil worship.
Christian - You worship the devil! Pagan - No I don't, I don't even believe in the devil! Nuuuuuuuu~~~~~!
I'll finish this off with a little anecdote. A couple yers ago, I was having a conversation about religion with a Christian friend (well, more aquintance) of mine. I mentioned that I didn't believe in Satan, and she responded with "Well, he believes in you." I laughed at the witty comeback, and the conversation went on.
So, do you believe in Satan? Will you accept the idea of an enemy figure as readily as a benevolent god figure?
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:37 pm
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Alright, first things first... *FLYING TACKLE_GLOMP!*
Ahem... And now to business.
It's definately an interesting concept to ponder; I grew up Catholic, so it's a little bit hard for me to completely throw off an entity that I grew up with, so to speak. Do I believe in Satan? In a sense... Mayhaps more the Lucifer side of things; I believe that an angel was cast out of Heaven and is the antithesis of the Christian concept of God. It's a matter of balance: good and evil, light and dark. A better question would be do I recognize that entity?
It's taken a long time, but I think I've left behind me the notion of a being of pure evil who's mission in existance is to first lead me into sin and who will then spend enternity tormenting me. Truth be told, I give the idea of the devil little to no thought. So I suppose I vaguely reognize this entity's existance, but ont he same side of the coin, I'm more inclined to say that Christ was simply a man, a prohpet, and not the son of God.
But I agree that it's a defence mechanism to immediately spout out "I don't believe in Satan!" It's honestly the easiest thing to say when confronted by it. It's not one that I've ever used; I've always simply said I don't recognize any such entity in my practice, but that's just me. I think, for the most part, people who do the confronting would not be the sort willing to listen to rational arguments that begin with "I don't worship Satan." But it depends on how they've asked the question. In some cases, sometimes a little white lie makes everyone's life just a little bit easier.
But to further Nihil's anecdote, I'll paraphrase a quote that's always stuck with me from Bless the Child: The cleverest thing the devil ever did was convince mankind he doesn't exist.
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Nihilistic Seraph Vice Captain
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:51 pm
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:54 pm
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Nihilistic Seraph Vice Captain
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:58 pm
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:11 pm
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When I read the Bible, I kindof favored the devil over Yahweh... o_O;
The serpent in Eden on the tree, tells them the truth, while Yahweh lies and says they will die the day they eat it, but Adam lives on to be 130 years old. If the god of Abraham can wipe out the face of the earth, kill men, women and children, along with all but two of each kind of animal, there is surely good to the devil.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jHPg3kjKBRc ninja
I don't believe in the Devil -- I think he's Abrahamic God's scapegoat, if you'll excuse the pun...
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:12 pm
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:20 pm
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Jezehbelle When I read the Bible, I kindof favored the devil over Yahweh... o_O; The serpent in Eden on the tree, tells them the truth, while Yahweh lies and says they will die the day they eat it, but Adam lives on to be 130 years old. If the god of Abraham can wipe out the face of the earth, kill men, women and children, along with all but two of each kind of animal, there is surely good to the devil. Well, to begin with, the serpent isn't Satan, and God doesn't say that they'll die the moment they eat it.
As well, that idea of evil in the Abrahamic god doesn't make it logicaly follow that the devil can have good in him.
Quote: http://youtube.com/watch?v=jHPg3kjKBRc ninja I'm looking at that now. I'm a little sceptical seeing as they posit that not only are Satan and Lucifer the same person, but that Lucifer fell before Jesus even arrived on the scene.
Quote: I don't believe in the Devil -- I think he's Abrahamic God's scapegoat, if you'll excuse the pun... Augh, puns. xp
Care to elaborate on that?
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Nihilistic Seraph Vice Captain
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Nihilistic Seraph Vice Captain
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:23 pm
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:24 pm
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Nihilistic Seraph Jezehbelle When I read the Bible, I kindof favored the devil over Yahweh... o_O; The serpent in Eden on the tree, tells them the truth, while Yahweh lies and says they will die the day they eat it, but Adam lives on to be 130 years old. If the god of Abraham can wipe out the face of the earth, kill men, women and children, along with all but two of each kind of animal, there is surely good to the devil. Well, to begin with, the serpent isn't Satan, and God doesn't say that they'll die the moment they eat it. As well, that idea of evil in the Abrahamic god doesn't make it logicaly follow that the devil can have good in him.
Actually, I'm pretty sure the serpant is Satan, or Lucifer, or whatever you'd like to call him. It's what I was always told in church, and authors like Milton have certainly played it up. It just wasn't a real serpant, it was the devil in disguise.
And Adam and Eve were indeed told that they would die when they ate of the fruit; however, he took pitty on them for being duped, and instead cast them out of the garden as punishment.
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Nihilistic Seraph Vice Captain
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:36 pm
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The Bookwyrm Nihilistic Seraph Jezehbelle When I read the Bible, I kindof favored the devil over Yahweh... o_O; The serpent in Eden on the tree, tells them the truth, while Yahweh lies and says they will die the day they eat it, but Adam lives on to be 130 years old. If the god of Abraham can wipe out the face of the earth, kill men, women and children, along with all but two of each kind of animal, there is surely good to the devil. Well, to begin with, the serpent isn't Satan, and God doesn't say that they'll die the moment they eat it. As well, that idea of evil in the Abrahamic god doesn't make it logicaly follow that the devil can have good in him. Actually, I'm pretty sure the serpant is Satan, or Lucifer, or whatever you'd like to call him. It's what I was always told in church, and authors like Milton have certainly played it up. It just wasn't a real serpant, it was the devil in disguise.
And Adam and Eve were indeed told that they would die when they ate of the fruit; however, he took pitty on them for being duped, and instead cast them out of the garden as punishment. Well, if the serpent is really Satan in disguise, I'd ask why God then condemns the serpent to
Yahweh Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
As well, the bit about them dying goes like this.
Genesis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
I checked with blueletterbible for the Hebrew in this, and it says that "die" in the text is used in the imperfect tense, which in Hebrew (according to Wiki) denotes ""uncompleted" action and therefore denotes present or future time."
I'd then draw the link that God knew they were going to eat it, get banished and eventually die. 3nodding
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:42 pm
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Nihilistic Seraph Vice Captain
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:21 pm
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:49 pm
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:58 pm
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