The Nature of Ntjr

[WebenBanu]

I'm currently reading Erik Hornung's Conceptions of God in Ancient Egypt. There's a lot of controversy over exactly how the ancient Egyptians viewed their gods- I've put together a theory based on the books I've read and lectures I've attended at our local museum, and now I'm going through Hornung's book and comparing notes. Here's the theory I'm starting with, open to tweaking a bit after I've finished the book:

The Egyptians believed in spirits which animated various different phenomenon, localities, objects, animals, ect.- pretty much anything had an indwelling spirit, almost like the concept of kami in the Japanese Shinto religion. These spirits, just like the rest of the flora and fauna which live in an area, were created at the beginning and exerted their influence to maintain and shape the creation over time- they are natural components of our world. As people began to gather in areas and live in them, they came under the jurisdiction of the spirits which were overseeing those areas- as more people became conscious of those spirits, and interacted with them more directly, a relationship was formed between this divine community and the human community from which both humans and spirits benefited. Spirits have access to spiritual realms and knowledge, and can give people guidance and influence the outcome of events. People have access to physical realms, and can give spirits offerings and bring events to completion. As the relationship between people and spirits developed, certain spirits came to the fore as representatives (or simply the most powerful of their group) and became gods.

Now, there were essentially three ways of understanding divinity in ancient Egypt- first off there was the local god, and this is where it all basically started. Most of the gods we know of in the Egyptian pantheon started off as the patron god of some particular place, and these are basically the "representatives" of that area which I was just discussing. On Their own home territory, each of the gods was considered the Ultimate Being- with influence over every aspect of life, and credited with creating the world and all the other gods. In this case the deity represents an extreme unity- having first been the only One, from Whom all others emerge. It is also worth noting that there were some gods Who were a part of the divine community in Their original territory- not Ultimate Beings- Who later on branched out into one or more other cities where They acquired the top position of "local god." Amazingly, we see almost no violent disagreement between the various temples about all these different gods claiming to be the First One- the one notable exception being Akhenaten.

When the local god began to spread to other towns, however, He or She had to become more specialized- the other town already had it's own Ultimate Being, after all. This is where the gods begin to develop specific spheres of influence- usually based on local crafts or products, puns on the deity's name, His or Her personality, and many other factors. Basically, the gods took on more specific roles based on Personal aptitude.

However, the gods functioned together as a community- in almost the same way that one can speak in terms of Man or mankind, one can also speak of God in ancient Egyptian religion. The main difference is that the community of the gods tends to be a bit more cohesive- each of Them is bound by ma'at, a complex system of relationships and balances between different parts of the created world. Basically, ma'at is what things are when every thing is as it was meant to be- it's the ideal of creation, and Ma'at is also personified as a goddess in Her own right. The gods live on ma'at as humans live on the air we breathe, so They can't continue without it. Some deities, like Stkh, are able to sidestep the usual rules of ma'at, but this is always done with the goal of returning to ma'at in a greater sense (like using dynamite to blow up an obstruction in a riverbed- it tends to take a bit of the riverbed out with it, but prevents habitat further downstream from drying up). In this way, the gods are more bound by ma'at than humans are (or at least, are wiser in paying attention to it), so Their actions tend to be more unified. It is my understanding that as a result, They are better able to function as a unified whole than humans usually are, which leads to a collective understanding of "God" which is still a puzzling and controversial subject in modern egyptology, and is often mistaken by some as a kind of monotheism.

There are a few variations on these general themes, but for the most part that's how I think it works.

Furthermore, the gods also participate in maintaining the cults of one another- there are several references to gods worshiping each other, bringing offerings to one another, and reciting each other's hymns and praises. So while the specifics of godly duties and identity were, to an extent, a co-creation between humans and the divine, those identities are not solely dependent on humans- the gods carry on Their own rituals without us, and so They do not "die" even if there are no humans tending to Their worship. However, I do believe that the presence of a human following will strengthen Their impact on this world, and so the devotion of Their followers and the multiplication of Their images both go a long way to re-establishing ma'at by underpinning Their influence in the physical world.

Any other thoughts on this? To agree or disagree?  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

Interesting, but is brings some in the position of divinity, down to simply a grandiose spirit. Possible though.  

[Jameta]

You make more sense than the book I'm reading, which was bascially trying to say the same thing, I do believe. I also feel that way on a grander scale, that each Pantheon has a special influence over a certain area, as well as draws certain aspects of the environment into it. In example, that could be one of the reasons behind the more Middle Eastern religions being strict, as if one made a mistake in the living environment, there was/is a good chance of ending up dead.

Stemming from this, it would make sense that each pantheon and each deity is different in an area, for, again, the environment is different, as well as the people- one town could be mainly crafters, while another farmers. Of course, as their is truly one world environment and one people, the Many are/come from One.

...I hope I made some sense. sweatdrop I'm really afraid I'm loosing my touch at explaining what I'm thinking/feeling right now. crying  

[FireonYce]

well i agree with almost all of it and thats a plus, but i do feel however that certain cities had triads of gods that held power. I think but just don't quote me one of the most common was the solar triad. Amun and Ra and someone else. maybe I'm just tired.  

[Archangel Calyphrael]

Aha. So other things are backing this up.

From my stolen information -- YHWH originally took an interest in the humans a while after Yamawhet stepped down and He came into power. Apart from a genuine wish to help someone, He also took an interest in the humans on Earth for a very specific purpose.

Gods are essentially normal people (even with faults and flaws!) that have risen to control extraordinary power; however, this power must be sustained, and one of the most common ways to both ascend to godhood and to keep it is through the collected devotion of others to you -- worship.

A while after YHWH came to power, the other Firmaments began to get the idea that YHWH was completely off His rocker/full of Himself/weird/etc. and basically stopped supplying him with all the power they used to. I know the Wolves at the very least are afraid of the Angels, and that YHWH had broken a deal with Hasafa around that time. So, what better thing to do than to literally control a large amount of people and their devoted energies? Sacrifices come into play as well; obviously pain and death releases a great deal of energy, and if you look up all the instances of sacrifices needed in the OT..

Well.

Also, if anyone's read Orwell's 1984, they'll recognise the thorough squishing of sexuality from there to here, and the frenetic energy it produced.  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

You know what, now I actually have to go find these Gods of the Firmament, because my brain can't decide whether they are actual deities, or uber-powerfull spirits.  

[Archangel Calyphrael]

Nihilistic Seraph

You know what, now I actually have to go find these Gods of the Firmament, because my brain can't decide whether they are actual deities, or uber-powerfull spirits.

In the long run it's pretty much the same, though deities have transcended only working with an aspect of the world into actually controlling and being it.

But still, you do that. Try Hasafa, and be bold but not rude.  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

Embyr Arrikanez

Nihilistic Seraph

You know what, now I actually have to go find these Gods of the Firmament, because my brain can't decide whether they are actual deities, or uber-powerfull spirits.

In the long run it's pretty much the same, though deities have transcended only working with an aspect of the world into actually controlling and being it.

But still, you do that. Try Hasafa, and be bold but not rude.

Sure, why not. As for the transcend thing, how does this theory go?

As the divine is infinite, the faces of the divine are infinite. Technically, there is a face of the divine, a deity with the characteristics of me. Or you. One could then theoretically aawaken that deity and be subsumed into it's personality.  

[Archangel Calyphrael]

Nihilistic Seraph

Embyr Arrikanez

Nihilistic Seraph

You know what, now I actually have to go find these Gods of the Firmament, because my brain can't decide whether they are actual deities, or uber-powerfull spirits.

In the long run it's pretty much the same, though deities have transcended only working with an aspect of the world into actually controlling and being it.

But still, you do that. Try Hasafa, and be bold but not rude.

Sure, why not. As for the transcend thing, how does this theory go?

As the divine is infinite, the faces of the divine are infinite. Technically, there is a face of the divine, a deity with the characteristics of me. Or you. One could then theoretically aawaken that deity and be subsumed into it's personality.

Yes, except.. s'not that easy. xp Sorry.

The Firmament gods aren't subsumed into another personality; we're all part of the Whole in the first place, They just take on a new role. There's actually a huge ceremony that has to be done before someone can officially be a Firmament god, but I don't know the details.

.. Unless I'm misunderstanding completely, in which case, whoo, I need more coffee.

Also, FYI most of the 'infinite' is kept in potentia, in the.. 'manifestation' of the Whole. I suggest you check that out, too, when you can -- if you can. Not everyone can, but it's still worth a try, right?  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

Hmm, something want me looking into this ^.^ And again, I have my guardian angel screaming at me not to jump in head-first. Well, I'm tired, and still in a half-trnace, so what you said made little sense. But it's fascinating none-the-less.  

[Archangel Calyphrael]

Nihilistic Seraph

Hmm, something want me looking into this ^.^ And again, I have my guardian angel screaming at me not to jump in head-first. Well, I'm tired, and still in a half-trnace, so what you said made little sense. But it's fascinating none-the-less.

>> I do that all the time. Shut up, Tsavo.

Yes, it is, rather.  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

Embyr Arrikanez

Nihilistic Seraph

Hmm, something want me looking into this ^.^ And again, I have my guardian angel screaming at me not to jump in head-first. Well, I'm tired, and still in a half-trnace, so what you said made little sense. But it's fascinating none-the-less.

>> I do that all the time. Shut up, Tsavo.

Yes, it is, rather.

Lol, well, Damos is nice, and has only helped me so I tend to listen to him. That and he makes a damned amount of sense when he wants to get a point accross.  

[WebenBanu]

Christo Minaverus

well i agree with almost all of it and thats a plus, but i do feel however that certain cities had triads of gods that held power. I think but just don't quote me one of the most common was the solar triad. Amun and Ra and someone else. maybe I'm just tired.

No, you're right- the third one in that triad is Ptah. "His identity is hidden as Amun, Ra is His face, and Ptah is His body" or something like that.^_^ I'm at work so I don't have my books to consult, but I recognize what you're talking about. Triads were very popular ways to group deities in a city, usually as two parental gods and a child, but not always. They were worshiped as a divine family, but there was usually one major deity and the rest of the family was maintained in the temple through auxillary shrines.  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

WebenBanu

Christo Minaverus

well i agree with almost all of it and thats a plus, but i do feel however that certain cities had triads of gods that held power. I think but just don't quote me one of the most common was the solar triad. Amun and Ra and someone else. maybe I'm just tired.

No, you're right- the third one in that triad is Ptah. "His identity is hidden as Amun, Ra is His face, and Ptah is His body" or something like that.^_^ I'm at work so I don't have my books to consult, but I recognize what you're talking about. Triads were very popular ways to group deities in a city, usually as two parental gods and a child, but not always. They were worshiped as a divine family, but there was usually one major deity and the rest of the family was maintained in the temple through auxillary shrines.

Interesting. My experience with triad gods has allways been ordered in maiden-mother-crone, or hunter-father-mage.  

[WebenBanu]

I just tweaked my original post a bit- the chapter I'm reading in Conceptions mentioned a specific case where the god did not follow the pattern of starting out as a powerful local god, and then generalizing. It's Khnwm, the ram-headed potter Whose main center of worship was a place now known as Elephantine. Apparently, Khnwm is a very old god, and early on in AE history He was widely accepted as a Creator god even though He did not have a specific cult center. In those days, there are no mentions of Him in Elephantine until some time after it became a more prominent political and strategic center in c. 2580 BCE.

To me, this makes it seem as though this god enjoyed wide acceptance due to the power which His original home territory enjoyed right from the start- even though He was not Top God there. Later on, another spot developed which attracted His attention- He moved over there and became local god for that city. I suspect that the original local god, if there was one, was a less powerful spirit then He, and took a subservient role to Khnwm upon His arrival.