Institutionalizing Paganism?

[Starlock]

I've been reading this fantastic book entitled "Being a Pagan" which is a collection of interviews from dozens of well-known (and not so well-known) Pagans. Most of the interviews are perhaps a bit dated (the book is over ten years old) but some of the comments in there made by those interviewed are sure giving me a lot to think about. One thing braught up in the interviews centered around the growth and development of the moment, particulary the idea of building a more structured community. With actual buildings. With actual paid clergy. With some sort of actual centralization.

Some of those interviewed recognize the need for this. And this issue hasn't changed in the ten or so years since this book was published; one of the podcasts I listen to hearkens to the same issues and voices the same concerns. Probably the main barricade to the creation of a more institutionalizing Paganism is that we're often so rampantly individualistic. I won't say too much more here, because I want to throw the question out to you all first.

What benefits might there be to having a bit more centralization and organization? Do we want the same kinds of services and benefits that more centralized religions have? Or do we not care? What are the benefits of remaining scattered and loosely organized?

If we want to institutionalize modern Paganism, what obstacles are there to overcome and what form might that take? If we don't, then why not?

What do you think of the scattered organizations that have already done this, such as Circle Sanctuary, Covenant of the Goddess, EarthSpirit, and others?  

[justGhostie]

That sounds like a pretty cool idea. But I wouldn't want it to be too institutionalized. More like a building everyone went to for special events, and group rituals sent out to say, signed up members. So like a Coven with their own building. :3  

[Starlock]

~Ghost of a Rose~

That sounds like a pretty cool idea. But I wouldn't want it to be too institutionalized. More like a building everyone went to for special events, and group rituals sent out to say, signed up members. So like a Coven with their own building. :3

It is not likely an individual coven could afford to have their own building, sadly. That's why covens and small groups usually either rent out spaces at local churches or meet in the members homes. Larger festival gatherings are often on rented out properties also, be it a church building or a local state/county park. There just are not very many Pagan-owned spaces. That lack of visibility undoubtedly contributes to the rather nebulous reputation that modern Pagans have among the general public. To most, if we were a "real" or "serious" religion, we'd have some visible presence in the form of a church/synagoge/mosque, right?  

[Azana Brown]

The problem with that is to have an institutionalized building, the group within needs to share an entire set of beliefs, which sets the way for the dogma most of us come to despise from some of the religions.

And then, with paid clergy and that kind of structure, it leads to church politics, which can get pretty ugly in cases.

Honestly, I don't mind if we ever get our own "space". We don't really need our own space, anyhow, seeing as the entire earth is out temple. If we want recognition, that's fine; we've set up festivals and Pagan pride days to show the world that we do exist.

I do know a place in Chicago, though...it's kind of in the middle of nowhere, but there was a Pagan book release party there, and from the large group of drums I saw on a shelf, I'd assume they meet there for more, as well.  

[The Bookwyrm]

Starlock

What benefits might there be to having a bit more centralization and organization? Do we want the same kinds of services and benefits that more centralized religions have? Or do we not care? What are the benefits of remaining scattered and loosely organized?

I think there is definately strength in numbers, and being able to come forward as a united body and announce "This is what we believe" would certainly be an asset on a number of levels. On the one hand, it's going to make things cleaer for converts as to what is and is not a part of any one particular path, and it would lend a certain amount of public credibility; it would also be nice to know precisely where to find a group when one didn't feel like celebrating alone. Group settings always allow for those who are less experienced or are uncertain/uncomfortable with the ins and outs of performing ritual the share the benefits. But that can also be rectified by finding a local coven or group.

However, the individual touch does lend itself to closer personal relationships with deities, elements, and other entities invoked during ritual. There's more personal involvement and less chance that you're going to simply pay the service/rit lip service.

Quote:

If we want to institutionalize modern Paganism, what obstacles are there to overcome and what form might that take? If we don't, then why not?

The first obstacle we would have to over some is the plethora of paths contained within Paganism and establishing a core set of beliefs, what will define our spirituality. The largest form that's going to take is outrage by groups and individuals who feel marginalized because their beliefs aren't represented. Modern paganism places such a large emphasis on personal spirituality, and it's largely "religion by numbers" that it would be difficult to define what exactly Paganism is. Look at the Wicca debate; you can't find two members who can agree on what exactly Wicca is defined as. Should it be upheld is the purely Traditional sense, or is there room for the more modern Ecclectic? If the factions that comprise the whole can't even agree on what their core beliefs are, how will we ever be able to do so for Paganism itself?

We then would have to decide what rituals would comprise our calendar of holy days, and how they would be celebrated. What sort of ritual? How much involvement for the congregation? How would clergy be ordained? Would clergy even be used on certain holidays? Willt here still be the perosnal elements that could be practised at home with personal altars? Would the Goddess and God be involved in ritual? By what names? Would this be permitted to vary from group/church to group/church? What kind of archetecture would be utalised for the building itself? Would there be an outdoor alternative? There would be so much to consider...

Quote:

What do you think of the scattered organizations that have already done this, such as Circle Sanctuary, Covenant of the Goddess, EarthSpirit, and others?

I think that it's fine for a specific tradition or group to do this if they have a sufficient following and the means at their disposal to do so. All the power to them. But I do not think they can be used to represent the whole of NeoPaganism, because it's too diverse a body, and there are traditions and individuals who would suffer from the institutionalization of the faith. There are bound to be problems no matter how the decision is made to structure it, and because of the vast size and diversity of NeoPaganism, I think it's quite impossible to get all practitioners to fly under the same banner.

It would be a wonderful idea, and I think some works needs to be done towards more concretely is or is not a part of any one tradtition officially, but I don't know if it could move far beyond that.  

[Boadicia]

As a Wiccan student, the idea of buildings gives me doubts. Having a gathering place for general purposes has its benefits, but for the sake of ritual, confining worship to a building (excluding weather issues) kind of defeats the whole point of Wicca being dubbed a nature based religion. Also, because there are so many different forms of Paganism and practitioners tend to be scattered, accomodating them all in terms of temples and buildings could be somewhat difficult.

Outside of that, some sort of organization would have benefits for newcomers and make networking easier.  

[Starlock]

Azana Brown

The problem with that is to have an institutionalized building, the group within needs to share an entire set of beliefs, which sets the way for the dogma most of us come to despise from some of the religions.

I think that some of the groups that are currently out there are institutionalized but still manage to avoid nailing down much in the way of dogma. Plus, I think sometimes that Neopaganism needs to face the fact that you cannot avoid dogma and have a functioning religious system; any practice must have some kind of structure. Our dogma just doesn't tend towards the sort of 'rigid blind faith' that is often associated with the term.

Another question that has sometimes been braught up is whether or not Neopaganism is becoming too inclusive of a term and if it needs to be limited. If you could limit it, I'm not sure how one would even go about enforcing that. The only way to do that probably would be laying down an institution and having more defined creeds, tenants, dogmas, what have you. That might happen sometime in the far flung future, but I'd be surprised to see that kind of unified movement from modern Pagans in my lifetime.

The Bookwyrm

On the one hand, it's going to make things cleaer for converts as to what is and is not a part of any one particular path, and it would lend a certain amount of public credibility.

Boy, clearer termniology alone might be nice, wouldn't it? I'm not sure if institutionalization would totally fix that issue though. Even more centralized religions have some issues with who is part of what and who isn't. I once read that whenever you have more than one member of a religion, there can be open debate on any defining issue of that religion. Even if you try to stick to the book, so to speak, there'll be individual variations on interpretation. In terms of the Neopagan movement, though, I'm not sure it can get more crazy than it already is.

Credibility is an issue I've heard braught up by some other sources I've come across, particularly in relation to the Pentacle Quest that has been going on. Probably one of the problems with getting the pentacle approved by the VA has been a credibility issue and the lack of a united front. There's been a bit more unification on this issue than there probably ever has been in the Neopagan community, though!

The Bookwyrm

If the factions that comprise the whole can't even agree on what their core beliefs are, how will we ever be able to do so for Paganism itself?

It might depend on how much structure you want to put around it. Not every little thing has to be dictated. There have been some attempts to get some more broad, guiding principles laid down and maybe the same thing could be done with modern Paganism as a whole? Remember the American Council of Witches that put together those 13 tenants of belief? Something like that, maybe. I dunno.

The Bookwyrm

But I do not think they can be used to represent the whole of NeoPaganism, because it's too diverse a body, and there are traditions and individuals who would suffer from the institutionalization of the faith.

That's an interesting thing to consider, because I think to the public eye, it is these big organizations that end up representing the whole of Neopaganism to outsiders in some sense. Those who are biggest and most visible get the most notice. What if there's a misrepresentation resulting from this? I mean... lots of us know that a huge chunk of Neopagan practitoners are isolated solitaries, but does the general public get that impression?

Boadicia

As a Wiccan student, the idea of buildings gives me doubts. Having a gathering place for general purposes has its benefits, but for the sake of ritual, confining worship to a building (excluding weather issues) kind of defeats the whole point of Wicca being dubbed a nature based religion.

Hmm. It is true that Neopagans generally espouse to the idea that Nature is the temple and therefore there is not a need for physical buildings. Sometimes practicality makes that a hard ideal to live by. There's a sort of 'fair weather Pagan' phenomena that I've seen commented on once by an essayist at the Witches' Voice website. Up until a bit recently, I think I'd have probably wholely agreed with the idea of not having buildings as well.

But recently I visited a holistic spirituality center and it was... welll... amazing. They had solar powered water heaters, hermitages, a Nature trail, a meditation room that was designed in such a way that when I walked in I felt this overwhelming sense of peace and calmness... WE could build things like that. If I wasn't already aware this place was Christian supported, I would have thought the place WAS built by Neopagans! Buildings don't have to be opressive or cut off from Nature. You can build them to be relaxing and more integrated with Nature like this place did!  

[Jezehbelle]

What benefits?
About the same benefits you get with having a community, period. Organization is the key to having any larger number of people come together -- 20 and up with little organization can get sticky when you want to have a meeting or do something for progressing...

Let me just go with what I see my sister's Church has:
They have free-daycare during services, free breakfasts, financial help for people wanting to go do a church activity, or actually just needing money. There's a main service on Sunday mornings, then specialized groups (teens (and groups for guys and girls to meet seperately), college and career (19-25), newlyweds and engaged, etc and so on), for specific time between peers. If you need advice, there's probably someone at the church whose been in that situation before and can help you out.

There's some benefits from being loosely organized. We can figure things out on our own. We can go to festivals and such without being part of a continual community (kinda).

I'm not sure if we would need to come to an overall agreement (religiously) to have a center. What we could do, is have several groups and traditions come together to create and use a space -- part nature preserve, part temple. Not everyone can handle being outside for a long period of time. I know Moondance, which is going to be in May, is probably going to be heinous for some first timers. Temperatures around here can get to 95-100 degrees (F), and we can get 100% humidity (and I'm not kidding). Not everyone can handle that...  

[DR490N]

on this subject, i'll simply refer to a passage from a book.
"the elenium" by david eddings.
"The elene church has become institutionalized, and it's very hard to love an institution." the elene church in the book trilogy is similar to the christian church, and the statement is made by a woman called sephrenia, whose pagan religion is similar to that of the ancient celts(actually, her race of people remind me of elves after a fashion). I think that the point made here is very valid. schooling has become institutionalized, and many many of us dislike the school system. government is an institution, and a rather terribly done one at that. it seems, looking at history, that when ytou institutionalize something, it is almost always misused by those in power of it, or loses public support in great numbers. so, should paganism by institutionalized? i should sincerely hope not. christianity became corrupted after just a few years of power, so paganism is likely to follow suit fairly quickly were it ever to become institutionalized. a few hundred years at most.  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

On the subject of nature as a temple, I think it brings up the debate of what defines nature, and what place humans have in it. Personally, as a spiritual center, I've found made places to be much more intense than nature. Nature exists, and while a facet of it can be found for spiritual progress, a made building is entirely devoted to spiritual activity.  

[Starlock]

Nihilistic Seraph

On the subject of nature as a temple, I think it brings up the debate of what defines nature, and what place humans have in it. Personally, as a spiritual center, I've found made places to be much more intense than nature. Nature exists, and while a facet of it can be found for spiritual progress, a made building is entirely devoted to spiritual activity.

Typically Western-minded folk place a harsh dividing line between humanity and everything else. That everything else constitutes Nature. I am far from agreeing with that particular notion as it is scientifically speaking a load of bologna (no offense to bologna intended... I rather like bologna actually...). However, overall cultural worldviews are very slow to change and typically take at least a generation. There are pushes to revising this worldview coming from different fronts; some from the elites, some from everyday people, others from activist groups.

That's all a bit of a tangent though; feel free to start a thread on that topic Nihl, if you think we could discuss it here in the guild a bit more. I could probably rant on that subject alone for longer than anyone probably wants to listen. sweatdrop

I keep thinking of that holistic spirituality center I visited, though. It is funded thorough a Christian denomination yet this place is absolutely fantastic. Teaches reiki, aromatherapy, and is very ecologically-minded. Institution doesn't have to be corrupt, it can be beautiful when in the hands of those who really care deeply about the projects. This place has been around for over a decade and is still amazing!  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

That makes two new topic for me then. Thread creating away!  

[MollyFu]

In my personal opinion, that is precisely what is wrong with organized religion. The fact that they feel the need for any sort of hierarchy. Next they'll tell us that we can no longer be solitaries. And btw, Paganism spans over 2000 religions. Some people even consider Catholocism to be pagan. Paganism is any religion that does not include the three Abrahamic religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Muslim. Far too big to put into just one religion.

I am a Pagan Minister, this way I can marry, bury, or name any person of any faith or religion whatsoever. This is how we gain popularity...through our ability to be anything for anyone. Not through trying to organize...sorry for ranting.  

[Starlock]

MollyFu

Paganism is any religion that does not include the three Abrahamic religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Muslim. Far too big to put into just one religion.

(yes, Starlock has been away for a while)

I probalby should have put for the definition of modern Paganism I mean by this, because I almost never use the definition you cite here. If I did, I would completely agree that the idea of any more far-reaching consciously made consensus-organization is ludicrous. But that isn't what I mean by modern Paganism, aka NEOpaganism. Definitions are discussed in a thread a while back somewhere, but generally by modern Pagans or Neopagans I'm speaking of modern recontructions or revivals of old polytheistic, pantheistic, animistic (though the diety concept is by no means limited to these three), Nature-based religious systems. In short, the kinds of people who register up on the Witches' Voice or would join a guild like this one... the self-identifiers.  

[MaddLlama]

I think it's a good idea, but I think there are a number of issues to take into consideration, not the least of which is how to establish certain definitions and limitations. I think also, if that's the way Paganism is heading, that a splintering of groups like you have in Christianity is unfortunately inevitable.

But, I think a good place to start is to create Pagan "centers" - buildings, with private natural land on its property when possible, to be used for several purposes. As a community center type place for Pagans, it wouldn't necessarily try to promote a particular creed (outside of any necessary generalizations to inform people of what exactly it is), but be more of a central place to teach, and to hold gatherings. Sort of like the YMCA for Pagans. It's not really an institution, but it's a baby step.