Ontological Status of Mother Nature

[Nihilistic Seraph]

Most pagans I've spoken to see nature, the trees, the birds, etc etc as creations of Mother Nature. However, when I hear this two questions come to mind

1) This seems a lot like an argument via design, which so many of us reject when in the form of the Judeo-Christian God.
2) The second you give consciousness and power to Mother Nature, you bring up problems with evil, as Mother Nature is generally seen as benevolent.

If you see Mother Nature as a metaphore that's different, but what about all this worship stuff I hear about? Worship a metaphor? I've been playing around with the idea of worshipping the Divine as the representative of Being, the connected nature of everything through it's existence, but the main problem with that is that it has no real purpose beyond changing your own view-point.

I'll probably be taking the critiquing side in this, mainly because I'm been questioning quite a lot of my own theology at the moment. So please, don't take ofense to anything I say.

I heard a quote that said that a little philosphy takes one away from God, while a lot of it brings one back. Shall we see if it's true?  

[Jezehbelle]

I'm not sure what you mean in point one. Reexplain for my vicodin-laden mind please (car accident on Wednesday -- me = owwie)

Point two though, I see "her" (I don't really think of collective nature as being entirely feminine, but to each their own) as being neither good nor bad. "You gotta do what ya gotta do."

Animal mothers, like cats for example, will eat one of their own offspring if it's sickly or dying. Is it really a good thing for her to eat her baby? Not really. Is it better for her to be kind now than to have it suffer for the rest of it's few days? Who can say? Is the mama cat just doing it because she's too lazy to get up and get a cricket or something? No. She does it to keep the other kittens from getting sickly too. Better to lose one than them all.

I feel like Nature's...
goals?
are more towards balance and growth than being divided up into good and evil.  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

I wonder why people can accept things as creations of Mother Nature, but not as creations of Yahweh. I wonder as well what power this Mother Nature has, if she's another facets of the infinite divine, or has some sort of independent power of her own.  

[Christina Prince]

The sad truth of the matter is most people, in thier teenage years, see any way of rebelling against christianity *cough cough* thier parents *cough* as a viable option and they don't question thier new gods or godesses at all. They, like the people they are rebeling against are just as closed minded and just as sheep-like as their own perception of christians. Very few people would pose this sort of question becuase: "omg like mother nature is so cooler becuase she's a woman and gurl power!" rolleyes  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

Well said biggrin  

[blindfaith^_^]

Nihilistic Seraph

1) This seems a lot like an argument via design, which so many of us reject when in the form of the Judeo-Christian God.

It sure does. I can't speak for people who believe in "Mother Nature" and her "creative power", but from what I can gather there are a couple of things going on here, at least with the people I meet with this mindset.

People with this view point come from a Judeo-Christian background and while they are looking for something different, they weren't looking for something too different.

They wanted to escape what they felt was a female opressed religion well looky at MOTHER Nature, nothing opressive there rolleyes

They wanted to incorporate practices that were more hands on in their connection to spirit, well nature is more tangible than the idea of God and now they can create their own rituals and workings.

Generally these people seem to view nature as benevolent and therefor there is no evil.

There may be more to it, but that's what I see as the basic differences in people who make these claims.

Quote:

2) The second you give consciousness and power to Mother Nature, you bring up problems with evil, as Mother Nature is generally seen as benevolent.

Well I'm not sure how people can maintain that a deity which controls the environment is benevolent when there are so many natural disasters and natural cruelities. I mean sure one could maintain that these acts were intended or needed, but I don't know how one could prove they are all for any kind of good, greater or otherwise.

Of course a lot of this is speculation. Obviously I don't worship mother nature, I don't even like the term to be honest. I know, I know, its a big pagan no no, but I feel like Mother Nature is this crazy "look at me I'm special!1" term we throw out that just replaces God for some or what would be more acurately called Spirit or Divine for others. To my knowledge, no one gives Mother Nature personality, aspects, motivation, or anything that would make her more than a bland place holder, no offense to mother nature for those who have had some sort of meaningful contact with her, I just don't know anyone who fits this description.

I would think that if one were really to worship Mother Nature, she'd have to have a whole bunch of facets and crazy randomness to have come up with all the natural phenomina we can see in the world around us. She would either be about chaos, natural order, higher purpose, or celebrating the here and now, as I can't see how she would be for the good or the evil. Whether or not nature could have a counter part as God has the devil would depend on how one views nature. If man was considered against nature, I suppose we would be her foil and our creations would run against her grain, but this makes us collectively a god and it wouldn't make sense to worship nature. On the other hand, if man is part of nature then everything we do by defintion should be natural, and while worship would make sense nature would lack a foil. Not that nature needs a foil, just that it is hard to set up a duality system if one deity encompases everything.

I don't know though, I think I'm rambling now.  

[Starlock]

I'm not completely sure how Gaia paralells design arguments in Judeo Christianity, so maybe you could elaborate on that for me so I could better address the point?

On the second point... well... as one who cheifly acknowledges Gaia and the host of forces that are part of that larger whole, I really don't see Gaia as benevolent at all. Gaia... Nature... is fundamentally devoid of such moral judgements. It is human beings who make such moral attributions of 'benevolence' and 'malevolence.' Gaia is what it is. Gaia includes forces of Winds, Waters, and all creatures upon its surface. These things in of themselves just are what they are. Futher attributions are based on an individual's point of view.

For example, most people whine and complain at some point about 'bad' weather, whatever they may think 'bad' weather is. I don't, though sometimes I catch myself doing it because I'm so conditioned by my culture to think of weather in 'good' or 'bad' terms. Weather is neither good nor bad. It is what it is. We tend to make other judgements on it though, as if the entire planet revolved around our own selfish needs. Pfft. Humans. razz

You later speak, Nihl of there being no point in changing beliefs beyond shifting your own point of view. Debatedly that is true of every and all beliefs, but it is important to keep in mind how incredibly powerful something as simple as 'changing your point of view' is. Everything, everything, everything we see, experience, and do, is colored by our point of view. Don't ever underestimate the power of perspective and how changing it can radically alter your lifestyle.

Religious conversion in general is shifting point of view, and I'd bet you've known people who have changed radically simply because of a little change in how they approach looking at things. It tends to snowball. I can speak of that from personal experience. The whole reason why I'm feeling called to work in conservation science is because I see the sacred in all of Nature. Likewise my increased mindfulness of the environment has been an effect. All of that started with a simple, willful change in point of view.  

[Curiously Fruity]

Why, being a pagan, must one 'reject' the idea of creationism? It seems a bit silly to me. In Kemeticism there was creation, Ma'at, Ra and another God created the world and gave it rules, however, does this mean that evolution didn't occur? Of course it doesn't.

To me, I don't see 'Mother Nature' as being a deity that 'created' Earth. But rather a deity that balances nature and creates and puts forth those subtle changes known as evolution.

Perhaps, I've totally misunderstood what you've asked, but eh, it makes sense to me. biggrin  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

.Curiously.Fruity.

Why, being a pagan, must one 'reject' the idea of creationism? It seems a bit silly to me. In Kemeticism there was creation, Ma'at, Ra and another God created the world and gave it rules, however, does this mean that evolution didn't occur? Of course it doesn't.

To me, I don't see 'Mother Nature' as being a deity that 'created' Earth. But rather a deity that balances nature and creates and puts forth those subtle changes known as evolution.

Perhaps, I've totally misunderstood what you've asked, but eh, it makes sense to me. biggrin

Creationism in paganism has all the same problems as it does in monotheism - who created the creator? The problem of causation, which no mythology I've run into has satifactorily answered for myself. If you think about them on a metaphorical sense, maybe they work though.  

[Goddess Hekate]

Never really thought about "Mother Nature" as an intelligent being?
More like a stage? Where forces are constantly fighting, never completely balanced yet never so out of balance that it tips the weight.
So you could say that because of these unbalanced periodes and the times where it realigned bore fruit to the creatures of this world?

No paradox now and science doesn't come after you with annoying questions.  

[Curiously Fruity]

Nihilistic Seraph

.Curiously.Fruity.

Why, being a pagan, must one 'reject' the idea of creationism? It seems a bit silly to me. In Kemeticism there was creation, Ma'at, Ra and another God created the world and gave it rules, however, does this mean that evolution didn't occur? Of course it doesn't.

To me, I don't see 'Mother Nature' as being a deity that 'created' Earth. But rather a deity that balances nature and creates and puts forth those subtle changes known as evolution.

Perhaps, I've totally misunderstood what you've asked, but eh, it makes sense to me. biggrin

Creationism in paganism has all the same problems as it does in monotheism - who created the creator? The problem of causation, which no mythology I've run into has satifactorily answered for myself. If you think about them on a metaphorical sense, maybe they work though.

Well now, if you knew all the answers where would that leave room for faith? I have my theory about the Judeo-Christian God and where he came from... and strangely enough I hear it's similar to one of the Morman beliefs, but, since we aren't talking about that...

Saying that these beliefs are metaphores sounds a bit dangerous to me. Wouldn't it be the same as doubting your faith? I'm not saying that it's bad to say that the way people believed back in so-n-so times is a little outdated and therefore must look at things from todays perspective. Or that it's wrong to sift through what you believe and what you don't believe. That's why there are so many varying faiths out there.

Honestly, I don't think there is a way for you to possibly get an answer for this question. Maybe Creationism and Design didn't take place, perhaps it did. If so, where did those creators come from? Possibly, from a family of creators that are spread across this universe, perhaps they are of their own species. (that's my theory) It actually makes more sense when speaking in terms of pagan religions though.  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

I honestly don't really see the point in faith if it contradicts logic, or isn't supported by anything. If I'm going to worship something, it's probably because I think it's really there and worthy of being worshipped, not because I think faith is a good thing. The whole family of creators thing runs up with the same causation bit as well.  

[Curiously Fruity]

Nihilistic Seraph

I honestly don't really see the point in faith if it contradicts logic, or isn't supported by anything. If I'm going to worship something, it's probably because I think it's really there and worthy of being worshipped, not because I think faith is a good thing. The whole family of creators thing runs up with the same causation bit as well.

You bring up a valid point... and it perplexes me. neutral I shall have to ponder on it.  

[Starlock]

Nihilistic Seraph

.Curiously.Fruity.

Why, being a pagan, must one 'reject' the idea of creationism? It seems a bit silly to me. In Kemeticism there was creation, Ma'at, Ra and another God created the world and gave it rules, however, does this mean that evolution didn't occur? Of course it doesn't.

To me, I don't see 'Mother Nature' as being a deity that 'created' Earth. But rather a deity that balances nature and creates and puts forth those subtle changes known as evolution.

Perhaps, I've totally misunderstood what you've asked, but eh, it makes sense to me. biggrin

Creationism in paganism has all the same problems as it does in monotheism - who created the creator? The problem of causation, which no mythology I've run into has satifactorily answered for myself. If you think about them on a metaphorical sense, maybe they work though.

Except that wouldn't the Pagan equivalent of creationism not seperate creator from creation? Since Paganism typically ascribes to the immanence of the divine as opposed to putting a wall between the divine and the material world? Just wondering because that's how I see it. Creator isn't seperate from creation; the whole thing runs and sustains itself in repeating cycles.  

[deathcomes_onsilentwings]

Christina Prince

The sad truth of the matter is most people, in thier teenage years, see any way of rebelling against christianity *cough cough* thier parents *cough* as a viable option and they don't question thier new gods or godesses at all. They, like the people they are rebeling against are just as closed minded and just as sheep-like as their own perception of christians. Very few people would pose this sort of question becuase: "omg like mother nature is so cooler becuase she's a woman and gurl power!" rolleyes

I am a teen, an I don't use it as a way to rebel. I am Pagan simply because it is what feels right to me. Yes, I question my faith sometimes. But all in all I feel that I love the Mother because she is my deity.