Wicca "Equal" Oppertunity?

[The Bookwyrm]

I've been a practicing Wiccan for some years now, and I've been reading and learning for many years beyond that. One thing that has increasingly grown to bother me over this time is the over abundance of information on the Goddess, and the seemingly honourable mention given to the God.

Wiccan claims to have a focus on balance, especially on the male/female powers, right? I've come to strongly disagree with this. In a room full of Pagans and Wiccans, if someone sneezes, you immediately hear a chorus of "Goddess Bless You!"s. If something good happens, it's "Praise be to the Goddess!" Every month when the moon is full, Esbat celebrations revolve around the Goddess, we are told we must learn Her mysteries, but where is the God? He recieves a co-honour during the eight Sabbats, as I have yet to see an Sabbat ritual anywhere in print, in all of my readings, that does not include equal, if not greater honour, to the Goddess. Also, until very recently, I had no idea that there was a Triple God aspect (Master/Father/Sage).

So my point is in all of this? Very simply it is that Wicca, WitchCraft and many other NeoPagan religions today, in their attempt to distinguish themselves from Christianity and to become a power base for the masses, have simply become the opposite of that which they've turned their backs on: Instead of a Patriarchy, we have a Matriarchy. Instead of there being an omnipotent male figure, we have a woman with a male counter part who just happened to be crutial in the very beginning. She nurtures life, while He sacrifices his body to sustain it. Does anyone else yet feel the tip of the scales?

For those of you fortunate enough, the next time you're in your nearest New Age/Metaphysical/Pagan book and supply shop, look at how many books are dedicated to the Goddess, the statues of her, the art work, and the jewlery. Then look for the God. I know in my experience, the Goddess is the over whelming presence. Upon asking the store owner, I was informed that it is very difficult to find anything related to the God, unless I want Green Man figures. Some of the largest international suppliers fail to provide statues, jewlery, etc. related to the God!

We're losing our Pagan identities in a flood of feminist-driven spiritualism, I'm afraid. Our rivival has become too one sided, especially since the onset of Pagansim and Wicca's popularity and the flood of New Age Wiccans, such as Silver RavenWolf. I don't know if anyone else feels the same as I do, or perhaps some of you have found wonderful resources that I haven't yet found for connecting with the God. But right now, I feel overwhelmed and lost amid a sea of femininity that these spiritual practices were never intended to have.  

[Jameta]

That is a very good point, Gypsy, and there is little I can add to it. 3nodding I do feel the balance of the 'opposites' is an important aspect in many Pagan faiths, but, as you have stated, many are neglecting it because the followers want to differentiate themselves with the predominantly-male Judaic-Christian branches (who are also facing tipped-scales- prominent female figures, such as Sophia and Mary, are no longer as recognized today).  

[Nihilistic Seraph]

The problem is there, but I don't think it's as bad as you think. For example, I have a book at home with basic rituals for the sabbats and esbats. Some friends and I will be performing the July Esbat, and the one writen down has an equal role for God/Goddess and Priest/Priestess. The problem is there, but there are also people who do practice the equality.  

[Siofra Da`Halbria]

Hmmm. I never really thought about why there were no statues of the God. But you make some really good points.

I have no room inside my house (or outside for that matter) where I could set up a personal shrine. I will do that eventually, but right now it is not practical. So instead of having a shrine, I just pray. I say "Dear Goddess, God, and anyone else who may be listening or able to help me," and then I pray. Usually for someone who is sick or not feeling well.  

[WebenBanu]

I agree with you whole-heartedly! This has been a developing problem ever since I first found Wicca, and probably long before! The main tenets of Wicca are supposed to be Balance and the Rede, but these days even that seems to be considered optional. People have varying or no versions of the Rede, and entire trads can be set up which completely exclude the God! Even those who keep Him around seem to pay mostly lip service, and I think that this is partially because some political groups have found fertile ground in the religion to push their own agendas.

As an aside, because of things like this Wicca is really losing its identity. I worked with a Pagan activist group for a while, and one of our projects was to draw up a pamphlet with definitions of Pagan terminology for non-Pagans. You would not believe how much difficulty we had in trying to actually define what a Wiccan is anymore. Seriously- try it yourself. Just about any qualification you come up with is either rejected by one trad or another, or is so generic that it could be used to describe just about any Pagan religion- and sometimes even non-Pagan religions. Sometimes it seems like all you have to do is to say that you are one, and you are, and it doesn't mean anything.>_<

Anyway, several feminist types, especially, have taken to the scene as a place which is very supportive of female empowerment, but they often act as though they have to take advantage of this environment and use it as a weapon to combat the patriarchy. They try to "balance" what they see as oppression in other realms by oppressing the opposite group in this one- but imbalance can't be corrected simply by swinging wildly to the other extreme. Things such as this are like pendulums, and the further they strain towards a matriarchy, the more powerfully they set up a backlash to the very thing they were trying to avoid in the first place.-_-

By the time I left Wicca, female chauvinism was so pervasive that I had begun buying books like Wicca For Men, by A. J. Drew, because you just don't learn much of anything about masculine divinity in most commercially available books on Wicca. I think it's because a lot of people assume that if you were brought up Christian (as most of us were), then you have ample experience with the masculine aspects of deity and what you really need to work on is getting in touch with the divine feminine. This used to make me so mad. First of all, if I'd developed a satisfactory relationship with divinity in any other religion then I would have been in that religion, rather than exploring a new one. Secondly, YHWH and the Wiccan God are not the same. There are some shared characteristics- mostly developed as the religion was taught to Pagans and used Pagan imagery to explain and celebrate its mysteries- but a few shared traits does not make two gods the same Being!

So yeah, I totally sympathize with you, and I would suggest that if you want to learn more about the Wiccan God, then look for books which are written specifically for men. It's a relatively new development in the Wiccan literary scene, I think- it probably became available when people noticed the growing spiritual aridity of what was available for men within the current titles.>_<  

[Atma311]

Very good points and very good advice, but I also agree that it's not as bad as it seems. Sure, some people probably are focusing too much on the Goddess and may not even know it, but you can't tell someone how to worship. so they must find out for themselves how to fix these problems.

As for me, I actually have been searching for books about the the Masculine side of Wicca, but our selection in SC isn't that big sweatdrop I guess I'll just have to work on find information from reliable sources like witchvox (which actually has been pointing out the lacking of the male spirituality lately).  

[WebenBanu]

Atma311

Sure, some people probably are focusing too much on the Goddess and may not even know it, but you can't tell someone how to worship. so they must find out for themselves how to fix these problems.

The problem is mainly in folks taking a pre-existing system and then chucking major components out the window whenever they feel like it, while still insisting that their preferences be included as valid tenets of the original system. That's what angers me- and then there is my experience that most Wiccans want social acceptance so badly that they have a really hard time telling these people, "No, you can't be a member" unless they're doing something really drastic- like eating babies. Since most people aren't going to go that far, that means that the ranks of Wicca are expanding rapidly, but at a terrible cost. By refusing to define boundaries when issues such as this come up, their identity is quickly dissipating, and the religion- without identity- will for all practical purposes cease to exist. This is already happening in my community- when I left my hometown, most of the old-school Wiccans had transfered over to Reconstructionist faiths or termed themselves "generic Pagans" because they didn't even want to be associated with the newer generation of anything-goes "do it yourself-ers."

When this happens, the deterioration of the system is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Fed up elders deserting the territory means that there will be even fewer qualified training sources available for newcomers, which means that more and more of them will be left to fend for themselves. Without a structured learning atmosphere- and not even a guarantee of qualified personal guidance- more and more of Wiccan theology will be lost, altered, or mis-construed, causing more of the older Wiccan practitioners to get fed up and leave. It's a downward spiral which has been slowly playing out since the religion was first published- books seeped into general consciousness without enough teaching covens available to back them up, and it went downhill from there. It's kind of depressing.

With the advent of online Pagan seminaries, however, things could start looking up. Seraph and I have posted a couple of schools which we think look hopeful- but there's no standardized accreditation system to ensure that the people running these schools know their stuff. We have the same problem in the Kemetic community, though we at least have a few large online temples which most acknowledge as being the hub of the community- and these temples offer training programs. Even they aren't standardized, however, the one attempt which was made at a Kemetic seminary which could actually bestow degrees in religious studies, crashed and burned. I rode with them on the way down, and it wasn't a pretty sight.-_-

These things are very important, though, and many people seem to be putting a concerted effort into raising the level of education and opportunity among the various communities. It just upsets me to see such socially destructive behavior being lauded about as "self empowerment" and other PC terms with which very few are willing to contend. There are ways to empower the individual without breaking the tool. People should be free to grow their own systems when existing ones don't fit the bill, but they should also use that creativity to pen their own terms for it- or use generic titles.

It's probably worse in some areas than in others, which is why some of us here think the sky is falling and others don't even see it.^_^' For my part, being a woman who has been fairly active within her local Pagan communities, I have often found that when the men aren't around the chatter turns pretty anti-male. People think it's funny, cute, or "sinful" in the sense that dark chocolate is a sin because it's so pleasurable. But it's just not quite so innocent as all that.

Woo... I got off on a rant.^_^ Sorry everyone- I'm going to step off my soapbox now, and back away slowly...  

[Atma311]

Good points and interesting, no doubt. I think that's why the Dianic tradition isn't really that popular because it take the God out completely (if I've been informed correctly), and changed the whole belief system.

I also agree with how elders are leaving quickly and how that's a shame, but I know that many that have left Wicca and now looking at it as if it's a joke in the Pagan community because of *insert all the points made thusfar* It's really irritating and annoys me greatly, but I'm lucky enough to have an elder in my coven. I often find it a bit humbling to ask someone so experienced all the questions I'd like to.

As for the anti-male ways that your group may have acted, I would NEVER be part of a group that made fun of me behind my back. I hope they either shape up, get set straight, or come to their senses in one way or another. If I found that people I loved and trusted were doing that... the only word I can think of is "devistated". I often think of my coven as a second family, if not an even closer family than my own. I would be SO ROYALLY TICKED to find people doing that behind other's backs!

Oops redface Kinda went on a rant there. Sorry about that sweatdrop  

[The Bookwyrm]

Wndu, those are some excellent points about there being a lack of qualified/experienced teachers available. We have a huge onset of "New Age" Wiccans because of this, and certain writers who simply inform the read "If it doesn't feel right to you, get rid of it!" The old school writers, such as Drew (by the way, is Wicca for Men any good? I've read a work he co-wrote, but he simply ranted through out the book about the lack presenceof the God) are labled as out dated because they inform readers that there is a set system of beliefs and dogma, and that you're entitled to your freedom within that.

Also, I think your location, both physically and along your spiritual path, as to whether or not you'll notice a problem. I have a couple of books, out of the many I have, that offer equal treatment of the Goddess and God. A couple. Out of close to two dozen that I own, and not counting the others I've simply borrowed. Most of my books, in the beginning, were mainstream, popular authors because those were all I had access to. I had to shop at my local generic book store where they could offer me no help, and I was forced to rely on websites that, looking back, may not have been as credible as they had seemed at the time. When I started talking to my aunt, who has been a Witch since the mid to late 70's, things started turning around. But I had a resource in her experience and readings that is becoming increasingly hard to find.

Over night trads, especially like Dianic Wicca, I agree are a considerably problem. But so is the fact that there is no governing body over the system that can help to keep beliefs and dogma set. For a brief time in the 80's and 90's, there was a group called the American Association of Witches, who did just that but they disbanded because of internal difficulties. That translates to members being part of the new over night traditions who began to disagree with things such as the Crede, The Law of Threefold, and other sources of controversy, even today. Paganism seems to carry a "Do It Yourself" lable, where practitioners, especially the younger ones, fell that they can create a viable belief system from the ground up by stringing together what they like from various paths. With the push for Women's Rights, and a strong feminist presence, Wicca and Paganism are going to suffer, and we're going to lose sight of the importance of the God.

Case in point: Paganism is refered to 99 times out of 100 as "Goddess Spirituality." Now, I mean no offence to anyone who follows a Goddess only path, but since when did the rest of us worship Her exclusively?  

[WebenBanu]

Atma

I think that's why the Dianic tradition isn't really that popular because it take the God out completely (if I've been informed correctly), and changed the whole belief system.

That was my original understanding of the trad, but while I was working on the pamphlet I met a few people who assured me that they were Dianic and yet still honored the God- in a lesser role, but he was still there. They informed me that it was actually a trad called Dianic Feminist Witchcraft which left out the God completely, and that most Dianics of their acquaintance did not approve. But who knows how accurate that is anymore.^_^'

Atma

As for the anti-male ways that your group may have acted, I would NEVER be part of a group that made fun of me behind my back. I hope they either shape up, get set straight, or come to their senses in one way or another. If I found that people I loved and trusted were doing that... the only word I can think of is "devistated". I often think of my coven as a second family, if not an even closer family than my own. I would be SO ROYALLY TICKED to find people doing that behind other's backs!

Yes, it's shameful behavior- though I'd like to say that it wasn't folks in my own covens who were the worst perpetrators. There was more of it than I liked, and I tried to be the wet blanket to dampen those flames whenever they sprung up, but it was mostly random Pagans that I encountered at the seasonal gatherings. I got the sense that either these people had some serious issues which needed to be dealt with, or they were in an awkward social position, and figured that since we were all women then the one thing we all had in common was a desire to bash men. *sighs* It was annoying, to say the least; I did not find it endearing.

Gypsy Blue

(by the way, is Wicca for Men any good? I've read a work he co-wrote, but he simply ranted through out the book about the lack presenceof the God)

It's been a long time since I read it, but I recall a feeling of elation at finally finding a thorough source for information on the God- and a certain incredulity that I'd had to resort to "reading in drag" in order to do so.^_^' In his bibliography, I see he cites Raymond Buckland, Zsuzsanna Budapest, Scott Cunningham, H. R. Davidson, Janet and Stewart Farrar, H. A. Guerber, W. E. Liddell, Edain McCoy, Margaret Murray, Gwydion O'Hara, Alex Sanders, Patricia Telesco, and Leilah Wendell. Hopefully, that will give you some indication of the book's tone and level of scholarship- it's been too long for me to say with certainty.

Btw- Wndu... Isn't he a high level Jedi or something? Interesting abbreviation for my name- I do find the Jedi order fascinating.^_~  

[Keistera]

Although an interesting topic, I'd be a bit careful around AJ Drew. Edain McCoy and he both have a less-than-savoury reputation among many Pagans (isn't Murray the one that had the theory of and "ancient matriarchal (sp?) witch-cult" debunked?) due to scholarship. Drew's rep mainly revolves around "Witch War"-esque stuff.

I'd love to see more sources on the masculine aspect of divinity. However, it isn't my fault that it's been Tara that has called to me, and not a God (as yet). In regard to Wicca, I see what you mean. It's disheartening for a religion that is supposed to concentrate on balance to lean so far to one side. :/

Pardon any spelling mistakes and the like, I'm recovering from an abscess.  

[Jameta]

*Poke of Relevant Currency*  

[The Bookwyrm]

Eeek! Sorry, Weben. That was a perfect example of why I shouldn't be posting between backshifts: I'm too tired to check my spelling, and I can't read for crap! lol

Keistera, I think you'd find a lot of Pagan authors who have faulty scholarship cited for their theories, especially in regards to historical societies that are long since gone. Those sources my be escew, but I think that their approaches to spirituality would be at least worth a glance, if not further research. The only complaint I've had about AJ Drew so far in my reading is that he's done more ranting about a situation than offering a solution, which had been his intent in the book in question.  

[WebenBanu]

Thanks for the warning, Keistera- I always appreciate honest and well-grounded opinions on the authors I've read. Information like that can be invaluable when one is trying to avoid building up theories on shakey foundations.

And Gypsy- no worries.^_^  

[FireonYce]

When I was still a Wiccan, I use to be a big Fan of AJ Drew. He claimed that most people shun the God because of the fact that they didn't like the fact of him being the main god of Christianity and how by emphassising the Goddess they were losing the God. Basically, he harped that people were just trying to be different and forgetting the balance. His Wicca books are very good. He strives for balance between the two sides of the forces. He brought back the God to Wicca. So that's my little rant in a nutshell. xd