"You owe me/the state/your parents/etc."

[darcyshirley33]

It seems to me that one of the things that makes people more upset than anything else is when you refuse to believe in owing anyone anything.

Even if priviledge is granted by paying up somehow ("I'll buy you that toy if you clean your room"), it's still a logic of debt. You still have to clean your room to essentially have the toy owed to you. People go nuts when a kid refuses to clean his room openly but demands that he should have the toy anyway. People generally feel these kids are from hell.

But as much as kids that do that are annoying as ********, I feel we should recognize that part of the reason we get mad at those kids is because we believe in and have so deeply internalized a logic of debt (the other part of the reason might just be that screaming kids hurt your ears and give you a headache, lol).

But a logic of debt is completely arbitrary outside of political and cultural contexts. To make this more clear, think of ownership. Ownership is not a tangible real thing. It is purely an idea. In order for "ownership" as an ideology to hold up, all members involved with the ownership of a thing have to agree that ownership is a valid ideology. You can reject ownership. In fact, most human societies did not ever decide to construct such an ideology, and any attempt to do so was actively resisted by the society. Particular social structures created ownership to uphold certain social arrangements.

To put it simply, a logic of debt is just another form of social control. That becomes pretty clear when to get anything, you have to give something up first. No one who's been through high school can say that they haven't heard "there's no such thing as a free lunch" before. And our society really believes that's a universal condition. But in reality it's not.

In other societies, let's say some hunter gathering society, if a member of the band said "In order to eat, you have to bring me fire wood," you could either subscribe to a logic of debt by fulfilling his request, which may or may not be in alienation to yourself, but usually is, or resist validating a power structure that person is trying to construct by simply grabbing the food out of their hands and saying "no," and maybe remind them that they're being a controlling a*****e. The person could have said, "Can you bring me fire wood?" and then given you food afterwards, and that would not have been validating a logic of debt because the person did not connect bringing firewood with some sort of payment or exchangeability (unless of course you're in a situation, which is often the case with ethics, morals, and good manners in western society, where that exchangeability has already been established and you and the other person recognize that when the person asks for firewood, they're really saying that they'll feed you if you bring them firewood). In other words, sharing and helping is not the same as owing. Most human societies resisted owing but promoted sharing and helping, because owing constructs power relationships, but sharing and helping does not. This is why less complex societies (which are less complex because they do not have systems of exchangeability like western society, which depends on a logic of debt) are much more egalitarian than western society.

Disagree? Agree? Thoughts? Experiences?  

[ashemountain]

I think trading/debt systems usefulness varies. For instance, trading food for firewood. Now, if the person with the food says, "Wood or no food for you," he's a ******** b*****d and should be beaten with a log (ok not really but he's still a b*****d). However, if the community as a whole acknowledges that they each have things they can do for each other and when needed, they do it, I think that works a little differently. You're not saying, "Do this and I'll give you this," you're just saying, "hey, can you use your skills to help better all of our lives." I guess it's a team effort. Again referencing your use of hunter/gatherers, the hunters could go off and do their thing and a couple of people in the village could prepare a spit so they could roast whatever animal they bring back. Now, I'd say that this village probably has a couple of different hunting parties and as such, as the hunts are divided up, so could the work be divided up. As I said, team work.

The whole owing thing is a bit of nonsense though. Now, granted I have used it before with my baby sister. But the way that functioned was more like, "Ok, I'd like to go see a movie and I know she would so I'll tell her if she behaves and cleans up her stuff, we'll go." Which I think is fair given the circumstances. Mom didn't like her having her toys and coloring books and stuff strewn about and once I made the offer, it was readily accepted and we were out to the movie pretty quick. But the whole motivation behind it stems from trying to get the child to understand that they should keep their stuff organized (to some degree, obviously when you're playing you're not gonna be THAT organized) so that it doesn't get lost or broken and lasts longer. Trying to teach the child to appreciate what they have. Granted, some kids are just whiny, spoiled brats that scream and holler but this also reflects on the parent. It just goes back to being a control issue cause the parent is lazy and just says, "Do it because I said so" and doesn't give a reason. I could go on since I have experience with small children and parenting them but I think you get the point. biggrin  

[darcyshirley33]

the former paragraph is what I called sharing. smile

And the latter paragraph...
Yeah, in this day and age it's impossible to raise a kid without doing that. I still don't completely agree with it, but I know that there's really no better way to do things sometimes. You know, now that I think of it, I've never read anything, no ethnographies or anything on any indigenous less complex societies, where the kids are disrespectful and how the parents or community dealt with that. I'm curious to find something about it.... Anyone know anything?  

[ashemountain]

Haha, right, sharing. I think I realized that this morning.

And I started wondering about that too while I was writing. I don't think I've ever seen a tribal child shown as a brat before, yet us "civilized" folk have children that you wanna strangle with big thick chains cause they're out of control. Course, I think that's also partially because of how materialistic we've become. I'm not saying there weren't brats until 40 years ago but it's just progressed to a ridiculous level. I mean, I've seen 12 year olds with ipods and sidekicks...what the hell?  

[darcyshirley33]

Anarchy Ashe

Haha, right, sharing. I think I realized that this morning.

And I started wondering about that too while I was writing. I don't think I've ever seen a tribal child shown as a brat before, yet us "civilized" folk have children that you wanna strangle with big thick chains cause they're out of control. Course, I think that's also partially because of how materialistic we've become. I'm not saying there weren't brats until 40 years ago but it's just progressed to a ridiculous level. I mean, I've seen 12 year olds with ipods and sidekicks...what the hell?

You know, it might be because in less complex societies kids are considered adults a hell of a lot earlier than we do in our society. Hunter-gatherer societies usually decide a kid becomes an adult around the age of seven or so. That means there's a whole lot of maturity happening a hell of a lot faster, because "being an adult" in these societies means being able to do everything everyone else can do, like get food, build a house, and take care of a family.

You know, I think kids in our society figure they can't grow up now, so they might as well milk it. And that's why they're such brats most of the time, lol.  

[ashemountain]

I think it's partially that and partially that sometime however many years ago it was, someone said, "Kids are dumb and immature" and then they made legal adult age 18 and gave the teen years this awkwardness to it that transcends normal pubescent awkwardness. Course, in these tribal settings, I think it's more likely that the young one would have good explanations for things as well.  

[darcyshirley33]

a lot of the stretching of childhood in western society has to do with civil rights movements, actually. lol. It was sometime during the 18th century a bunch of concern mothers came together to rally for child labor laws. Up until that point there were none, and kids rarely went to school. That's also around when education became mandatory. These progressive policy groups thought they were really doing something great for kids. Kids no longer worked from the age of 6 in the factories (where it was really dangerous), but from that point on had to go to school. Kids before that had to help their families as much as any other adult member, and were for the most part considered adults.  

[ashemountain]

Right...I forgot about all that. Which, to some degree it is a good idea cause having a 6 year old in a factory is kinda ******** but the results of kids being forced into education have brought us to less than stellar results.  

[darcyshirley33]

Anarchy Ashe

Right...I forgot about all that. Which, to some degree it is a good idea cause having a 6 year old in a factory is kinda ******** but the results of kids being forced into education have brought us to less than stellar results.

yeah. the sad part is, is when you're given the choice between factory and school, school is really the safer way to go. the problem is that they only viewed children's possibilities as either working in the factory or going to school. A world without work or education was out of the question. Kind of speaks to how western society percieves their own society and the world.  

[ashemountain]

Indeed and it doesn't help that education has become a stagnant, shallow affair. Math, English, Science. No art, no music. SAT/ACT prep courses that burrow into kids' heads and make them think that if they don't make perfect scores, they'll end up being crackheads on the street. It's pathetic. And then working, aaah, the working class. I should really bust out some quotes from "What is Anarchism?" for that. Mr. Berkman has such beautiful things to say about it. But I'm lazy and I want everyone to read it so READ IT hehe.  

[Rape_for_Breakfast]

my brain fizzled out halfway through the paragraph. burning_eyes