...
This deserves to be apart of this journal...
Expert for androgyny:
Quote:
Boys will be girls
WENNER:
On the “Some Girls” cover – and not for the first time – the members of the band are in drag. This now seems to have become a rock tradition. What are the origins of the androgynous appeal of rock & roll?
JAGGER:
Elvis. Elvis was very androgynous. People in the older generation were afraid of Elvis because of this. That was one of the things they saw in Elvis. They called it effeminate. And they saw it straightaway.
I saw Elvis as a rock singer, and obviously you were attracted to him because he was a good-looking guy. But they saw an effeminate guy. I mean, if you look at the pictures, the eyes are done with makeup, and everything’s perfect. I mean, look at Little Richard. He had a very feminine appearance, but you didn’t translate that into what Little Richard’s sex orientation was.
WENNER: When did you first start to incorporate all that into your own act?
JAGGER: Well, we did it straightaway, unconsciously.
WENNER:
But when did you get deliberate about it?
JAGGER:
Oh, about 1960. Very early, before we made records. As far as I was concerned, it was part of the whole thing from the beginning. I couldn’t have talked about it like I talk about it now. But it wasn’t some new thing. You were copying all your idols. I always thought Buddy Holly was very effeminate. His voice, not necessarily his look. And you just incorporated it all. I just pushed it further because it seemed the natural thing to do. Plus, there was that whole culture of people you met who were gay, in the theater and so on. And everyone in show business talked in a very camp, English way: “All right, duckie,” “Come along, dear.” So as soon as you were in it professionally, that was the way people carried on, so it became even more camp.
WENNER:
The Beatles weren’t like this. You were wearing heavy makeup and skirts.
JAGGER:
I think you just pushed the whole thing because you thought it was sophisticated to be camp and effeminate. It was a thing you showed some of the time and then put aside. It was very English – guys dressing up in drag is nothing particularly new.
WENNER:
But David Bowie told me that you were the master: “He taught all the rest of us.”
JAGGER:
Well, that’s very nice. And it obviously worked and offended people, which was always the big thing, something new to offend them with. I think what we did in this era was take all these things that were unspoken in previous incarnations of rock & roll and intellectualize them.
WENNER:
But you went further than anybody else and became a symbol of it. When were you first aware that you were this beauty, that you had a power to attract both boys and girls?
JAGGER:
Oh, from the beginning.
WENNER:
The girls, then the boys?
JAGGER:
Both, always.
WENNER:
In a sexual sense?
JAGGER:
I didn’t really think about it. I mean, boys were a very essential part of rock & roll. The girls were more onlookers. When I was 15, 16, I used to play this old-fashioned rock & roll – like Little Richard, Jerry Lee Lewis, Elvis. And I always felt the boys were more involved than the girls. Boys, as far as England was concerned, were always the hard core. And you just know the guys like it. They want to be you. Some might be attracted to you without knowing it. The girls are more obviously reaching out to you. In those days, guys didn’t reach out, put their arms around you and kiss you.
WENNER:
Pete Townshend wrote an essay that appeared in “Rolling Stone” about your 40th birthday: “When I am with Jagger, I do love to look at him. He is still very beautiful in my eyes; much has been said of his androgynous attraction, and I suppose my response to his physical presence confirms all that.” What’s your response?
JAGGER:
Gosh, it’s nice to know, isn’t it? Wow, Pete! You don’t think of Pete Townshend as someone who would respond to any of that, do you? To be honest, he would be the last person. But I think John responded to it, John Lennon.
WENNER:
In what way?
JAGGER:
He responded to it in a different way. When you get a big response, you push it and so on, until you’ve really done it. And then you don’t do it anymore. And it’s great fun, dressing up and being this figure. It’s wonderful.
WENNER:
What did John Lennon say?
JAGGER:
He said something in your magazine. It wasn’t to do with appearance, more with music. When asked about the Rolling Stones, he said, “I like the butch stuff, and I don’t like the faggy stuff.” But you don’t want to be butch the whole time. It would drive you mad, wouldn’t it?
WENNER:
Rock & roll is a very macho field.
JAGGER:
Yeah, but the Rolling Stones isn’t just a rock band.
WENNER:
What does it say to you about rock & roll, in what we’ve seen in Elton and Boy George?
JAGGER: See, it’s very confusing. In rock & roll, when I think of both sides of the coin or whatever you want to call it, I don’t really think of Elton John. He doesn’t spring to my mind, somehow. His appearance is flamboyant, always, but I don’t think of him as a feminine stage persona. I’m not saying he was a great butch rocker. But he wasn’t that feminine to me. Boy George was a feminine persona in a way – the moves and so on. He was an overt homosexual. Apart from those two, where are we going with it? I mean, I can’t think of hardly any others who are that well known. Are there more who we’ve forgotten about?
WENNER:
On the “Some Girls” cover – and not for the first time – the members of the band are in drag. This now seems to have become a rock tradition. What are the origins of the androgynous appeal of rock & roll?
JAGGER:
Elvis. Elvis was very androgynous. People in the older generation were afraid of Elvis because of this. That was one of the things they saw in Elvis. They called it effeminate. And they saw it straightaway.
I saw Elvis as a rock singer, and obviously you were attracted to him because he was a good-looking guy. But they saw an effeminate guy. I mean, if you look at the pictures, the eyes are done with makeup, and everything’s perfect. I mean, look at Little Richard. He had a very feminine appearance, but you didn’t translate that into what Little Richard’s sex orientation was.
WENNER: When did you first start to incorporate all that into your own act?
JAGGER: Well, we did it straightaway, unconsciously.
WENNER:
But when did you get deliberate about it?
JAGGER:
Oh, about 1960. Very early, before we made records. As far as I was concerned, it was part of the whole thing from the beginning. I couldn’t have talked about it like I talk about it now. But it wasn’t some new thing. You were copying all your idols. I always thought Buddy Holly was very effeminate. His voice, not necessarily his look. And you just incorporated it all. I just pushed it further because it seemed the natural thing to do. Plus, there was that whole culture of people you met who were gay, in the theater and so on. And everyone in show business talked in a very camp, English way: “All right, duckie,” “Come along, dear.” So as soon as you were in it professionally, that was the way people carried on, so it became even more camp.
WENNER:
The Beatles weren’t like this. You were wearing heavy makeup and skirts.
JAGGER:
I think you just pushed the whole thing because you thought it was sophisticated to be camp and effeminate. It was a thing you showed some of the time and then put aside. It was very English – guys dressing up in drag is nothing particularly new.
WENNER:
But David Bowie told me that you were the master: “He taught all the rest of us.”
JAGGER:
Well, that’s very nice. And it obviously worked and offended people, which was always the big thing, something new to offend them with. I think what we did in this era was take all these things that were unspoken in previous incarnations of rock & roll and intellectualize them.
WENNER:
But you went further than anybody else and became a symbol of it. When were you first aware that you were this beauty, that you had a power to attract both boys and girls?
JAGGER:
Oh, from the beginning.
WENNER:
The girls, then the boys?
JAGGER:
Both, always.
WENNER:
In a sexual sense?
JAGGER:
I didn’t really think about it. I mean, boys were a very essential part of rock & roll. The girls were more onlookers. When I was 15, 16, I used to play this old-fashioned rock & roll – like Little Richard, Jerry Lee Lewis, Elvis. And I always felt the boys were more involved than the girls. Boys, as far as England was concerned, were always the hard core. And you just know the guys like it. They want to be you. Some might be attracted to you without knowing it. The girls are more obviously reaching out to you. In those days, guys didn’t reach out, put their arms around you and kiss you.
WENNER:
Pete Townshend wrote an essay that appeared in “Rolling Stone” about your 40th birthday: “When I am with Jagger, I do love to look at him. He is still very beautiful in my eyes; much has been said of his androgynous attraction, and I suppose my response to his physical presence confirms all that.” What’s your response?
JAGGER:
Gosh, it’s nice to know, isn’t it? Wow, Pete! You don’t think of Pete Townshend as someone who would respond to any of that, do you? To be honest, he would be the last person. But I think John responded to it, John Lennon.
WENNER:
In what way?
JAGGER:
He responded to it in a different way. When you get a big response, you push it and so on, until you’ve really done it. And then you don’t do it anymore. And it’s great fun, dressing up and being this figure. It’s wonderful.
WENNER:
What did John Lennon say?
JAGGER:
He said something in your magazine. It wasn’t to do with appearance, more with music. When asked about the Rolling Stones, he said, “I like the butch stuff, and I don’t like the faggy stuff.” But you don’t want to be butch the whole time. It would drive you mad, wouldn’t it?
WENNER:
Rock & roll is a very macho field.
JAGGER:
Yeah, but the Rolling Stones isn’t just a rock band.
WENNER:
What does it say to you about rock & roll, in what we’ve seen in Elton and Boy George?
JAGGER: See, it’s very confusing. In rock & roll, when I think of both sides of the coin or whatever you want to call it, I don’t really think of Elton John. He doesn’t spring to my mind, somehow. His appearance is flamboyant, always, but I don’t think of him as a feminine stage persona. I’m not saying he was a great butch rocker. But he wasn’t that feminine to me. Boy George was a feminine persona in a way – the moves and so on. He was an overt homosexual. Apart from those two, where are we going with it? I mean, I can’t think of hardly any others who are that well known. Are there more who we’ve forgotten about?
Still, LOL Pete.
Still listening to "Loving Cup" by The Rolling Stones.
